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Posts: 5394/7006
(21-Jun-2009 at 03:41)


Quote:
There are different areas in the Quran which do seem to contradict themselves, but what I am saying the contradictions cannot be confirmed until you read the Quran in its original language and in its entirety to ensure there was no mistranslations of the text.
You are turning into Armitage, avoiding specifics by turning to vague waffles. Which of the contradictions I have listed hinges on semantics?


Quote:
And thus we reach exactly my problem with you VoR. Just because Mohommed says "intoxicants" doesn't necessarily mean he meant red wine. In fact, from his statement saying drinking wine was a good thing, you can easily infer Mohommed did not believe wine was an intoxicant.
You may infer that Mohammed was stupid. I wouldn't. Give me one good reason why he should think red wine was not alcoholic.


Quote:
This type of thinking and reasoning is what you have to do, VoR, in order for me to stop being such a dickhead to you.
That is not thinking or reasoning. That is inventing a new 'fact' (that Mohammed didn't know red wine was an intoxicant) to fit a predetermined conclusion.


Quote:
To be honest it is actually quite difficult to determine the "fastest", as new religions grow at very high rates.
Then you statement that

"Oh, and Islam would be the 2nd fastest growing religion in the world. Just an FYI because all of you here are lazy and don't bother to read anything more then a fraud of a website claiming descrepencies in the Quran and Wikipedia (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA)."

is WRONG, and you

"... need to read more, and stop acting on incorrect and/or incomplete information. It is getting sad/annoying."


Quote:
You more or less just proved my point. If the "actually" has not English equivalent, then the real meaning was lost in translation.
The meaning is distorted in translation, not lost. The original is clearly saying that you shoudn't go around killing people.


Quote:
We can rebuild what was lost in translation by examining what God told Moses to do next.
Quote:
Therefor, it is unlikely the 5th means killing is unauthorized no matter what, but rather, no killing unless you have a good reason to do so.
You might do that, but I would find out what the mythical meaning of the original word was rather than trying to guess at it as you are doing. In no way is the 6th commandment, even in it's original language, giving a licence to kill.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#61  
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(21-Jun-2009 at 04:38)
Maybe muhammad's recital isn't perfect. What would be wrong with that? There's enough in there to fill in the gaps through chronological reasoning and so on, to make a cohesive religious message.

The claim that the Quran is perfect can still be true, somewhere in heaven, only Muhammad was unable to communicate it perfectly for us, so we a few problems.
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(21-Jun-2009 at 09:20)


Quote:
The claim that the Quran is perfect can still be true, somewhere in heaven, only Muhammad was unable to communicate it perfectly for us, so we a few problems.
More vague waffle to avoid specifics? You can't come up with any rational, realistic explanations for the contradictions so now you tell me they only *look* like contradictions because i am human, but if were God I would understand that they are not?

We have you coming out with 'only Allah can understand', Bryan with the 'no contradictions in Arabic' that I predicted at the beginning of the thread, and Armitage refusing to say anything at all. What better demonstration could there be that the contradictions are real?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#63  
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Posts: 1290/1637
(22-Jun-2009 at 02:28)
Re: Contradictions in the Quran

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
We have you coming out with 'only Allah can understand', Bryan with the 'no contradictions in Arabic' that I predicted at the beginning of the thread, and Armitage refusing to say anything at all. What better demonstration could there be that the contradictions are real?

They are real. It is an imperfect recital by muhammad. But that doesn't mean the religion is unpractical.
#64  
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(22-Jun-2009 at 03:46)


Re: Contradictions in the Quran

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
They are real. It is an imperfect recital by muhammad. But that doesn't mean the religion is unpractical.
Nobody said it was. The discussion is whether Armitages claim that the Q'ran is error free is true or not. At least now you agree that Armitage is wrong.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#65  
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Posts: 1292/1637
(22-Jun-2009 at 07:02)
Re: Contradictions in the Quran

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Nobody said it was. The discussion is whether Armitages claim that the Q'ran is error free is true or not. At least now you agree that Armitage is wrong.
I agree that muhammad was prone to error, and therefore so was his recital of the Quran. The single lines and words have visible contradictions, I agree, but 99% of Muslims will not read the Quran in this matter. I conclude that, while your criticism is sound, it is practically useless because each side of the theological fence is already convinced of their reasons. So, it would be quite possible to say, "yes, there are errors", "but I am compelled to overlook them for religious purposes". So, to a Muslim, there are no errors, because there is no impetus to fixate on them. Only to you and others, will such errors be apparent.
#66  
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(22-Jun-2009 at 07:53)


Quote:
So, it would be quite possible to say, "yes, there are errors", "but I am compelled to overlook them for religious purposes". So, to a Muslim, there are no errors, because there is no impetus to fixate on them. Only to you and others, will such errors be apparent.
Yes, I agree that a lot of Muslims ignore the contradiction, even though they clearly exist by any objective standard, because they don't fit their preconception that the Q'ran is perfect. Armitage is an example of this.

I don't agree that a load of Muslims being in denial over the contradictions that are obviously there means that the errors do not exist. The contradictions are real whether you choose to ignore reality or not.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#67  
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Posts: 92/117
(01-Jul-2009 at 08:17)
I think the main point here is that religious books are there to share morals through stories and retell the beliefs of certain faiths. When you start making claims about a religious text based on the ideas of your faith, as opposed to referring to the actual physical text itself, then you start looking like an idiot. Armitage has behaved in a manner which shows that his faith has blinded him to anyone who doesnt repeat what he already believes. I dont mean to attack him, but that mentality has been the cause for more suffering and wars in the world then just about anything. That way of thinking is poison, any only works to hurt his faith and the world. It is blind ignorance. You can say the word peace a million times a day, it wont change the fact that your mentality is the biggest hurdle that the human species will ever have to overcome.

The contradictions cant be explained away using thelogical ideas. It can only be explained using passages from the text because we are not debating the validity of Islam here, just that there are contradicting statements made within the Quran. The text, in this case, is the only allowable source of material, not general theological principles nor historical information. Just the text.

One problem that plagues small/weak minded people of faith, is the pinhole. People feel as if, when you prick one minuscule hole in something, that you are completely refuting every aspect of it. This is an illogical way of reasoning. Get over it.

And for those to say that in Arabic it is all different, and the contradictions only exist in the english translations, well okay. Go read the Arabic passages and tell us whether in Arabic it says 6 days or 8 days? You hide behind "it is better in Arabic" because you are hoping people here cant read Arabic. It is a sad tactic to claim facts that you know others do not have the ability to check. You might as well just say "Allah said it, so it is perfect" and let us know that there is no reasoning with you.


All this reminds me of this older lady I used to know. She would tell you a story and mix up the names during the story from time to time. If you listened to the broader message she was saying, you had no problem with the mix-up in names. The mistakes did no take away from the value of the story. Sometimes the situation would required you to get her to clarify, because the contradiction would lead to greatly differing ideas about what was going on, but besides those times, you would just follow along and absorb the greater picture. Of course this old lady didnt go around blindly screaming that everything she said was perfect and without flaw, so it didnt bother anyone.

Only the ignorant have the capacity to be offended.
#68  
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Posts: 3996/4024
(04-Jul-2009 at 13:05)


On top of being awesome, I'm also a religious studies major!

But anyway, I only have a couple of brief points:

1. The Qur'an is not chronological.
2. The Qur'an was put together about 15-20 years after Muhammad's death.
3. Any translation of the Qur'an is not considered the 'actual' scripture, only a commentary on it. The Qur'an is only technically meant to be truth in Arabic, though we'll give them Farsi for good effort.

There are only a couple of factual contradictions in the Qur'an; most are contradictions of logic, which I'm sure, not only translate awkwardly, but actively are disassociated, to a Western audience, from their original context. Additionally, really, contradictions of moral, actions to take, etc. can always be explained using metaphor, I imagine.

Anyway, that's how I end. That said, after a semester and half a summer of studying a lot about Islam, I'm impressed with it as a religion: neato stuff.

Izzy is back and older than ever!
#69  
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Posts: 95/117
(05-Jul-2009 at 06:39)
I understand what is said about reading it in Arabic. If it is truly poetry then the original language and dialect would define aesthetic qualities of the text. I however, do disagree that you can explain away any problem by falling back on "oh you dont get it because it is in arabic". I could understand if you had just been given a brand new crisp copy of a first hand translation, but there has been quite a bit of time for people to discuss issues with translation, and make appropriate changes, or at least include footnotes. The majority of easily found literature I have seen isnt written from an academic standpoint, but a theological (or hateful).

And yes, I do not respect theology degrees, or divinity degrees or however else you want to mask them. The work I have seen from divinity colleges has always been much lower quality then what would be expected from similar disciplines. I have had to deal with MANY people who went to divinity schools and it was like comparing basic mechanic safety classes to masters level mechanical engineering. The atmosphere I have seen at various schools has been that of safety scissors and crayons, and "everyone is special: no one fails" approaches to education. It makes me sad that they are accredited and can issue masters and doctoral degree. Sorry, I just had to get that out.

Only the ignorant have the capacity to be offended.
#70  
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(05-Jul-2009 at 08:40)


I imagine I didn't make myself clear; my last point on the translation is what is claimed, not what I exactly believe. According to Islamic tradition, translation themselves are not considered the truth.

Additionally, I'm not a divinity school; I'm a religious studies major, not a major in theology. My role is to study religions and religious phenomenon, not to be a practicing theologian. All I study is secular.

Izzy is back and older than ever!
#71  
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(06-Jul-2009 at 04:24)
As far as the translation issue, it has been brought up before and I was addressing it in general, not taking a pot shot at you, Isis.


And on my comments about theology, I know the differences. Theology is studied as an insider and as such in not objective. Academic work that does not attempt to be objective is worthless.

You had said you were a religious studies major, which means you are objective and properly academic. Schools have different names for it, "Religion and culture", just plain "Religion" , "religious studies", ect... but as you mentioned, it is studied as an outsider. My problem with most easily accessible information on Islam is that it is written by members of the faith, and while being horribly biased, it also pads its word count by adding "peace be upon him/her/it/them" after every noun. Every such document presents a point, discusses no counterpoint, explains away any problems by saying god is all knowing and all loving, then meanders off into nothingness. If I had to classify it as anything I would call it propaganda before anything else.

So in conclusion, I wasnt shoting pot at you, I was paying homage by attacking theological studies, and lastly beware muslims padding word-count on essays on personal faith.

Only the ignorant have the capacity to be offended.
#72  
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Posts: 566/611
(07-Jul-2009 at 00:23)


Sorry, guys. I havent been in touch with this thread for things i had to get clear. And i was also reflecting on the qur'an verses about time that i was going to provide an explanation to as for the 5 supposed contradictions ive obliged to adress in this thread.

I still havent got the time to adress the next supposed time contradiction for i have not been able to dvelve into the topic enough. Im writing for another reason:

Why is this TRANSLATION OF ARABIC TO ENGLISH a point of discussion here??? It was Little Kid Izzy who came up with that. I never used that argument in this thread. Please refrain from bringing that up when no Muslim did that in this forum.


Well, I cannot remember having used that argument here or any other Muslim? But if so provide a link. Otherwise i must think that you guys are trying to descredit Muslims of doing "whatever it is that you have in your minds". This is not nice conduct.

peace


@Little Kid Izzy: Know that the Qur'an is faultless, without a single aota of contradiction. If you not think so, know that it is so. If you think it is indeed faultless (i dont get the nuance of your posting thus difficult to say if you argee or disagree on the validity of the Qur'an), then i ask why do you not accept the message? Your personal belief is offtopic i guess, i know but PM me if you like or care to tell.

peace be with you, hopefully ill post my second official explanation soon.

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)

Last edited by Armitage, 07-Jul-2009 at 00:25.
Edit reason: litte addition
#73  
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Posts: 102/117
(07-Jul-2009 at 03:06)
Armitage,

Anytime a book is being discussed, and that book has been translated from another language, translation problems are ALWAYS important. It is a very common problem when it comes to translations. As someone who is fluent in more then one language, I can tell you that translations usually butcher the finer details.



Quote:
Please refrain from bringing that up when no Muslim did that in this forum.
So if a Muslim didn't say it I shouldn't talk about it? It seems as if you think that there is some imaginary line drawn in the sand that one's stance on this topic is divided into Muslims and infidels. We are talking about contradictions in a book, religion/beliefs/ways have nothing to do with it. I've gotten the impression that you think we are trying to disprove Islam and destroy the foundation of everything Muslim. No one is. We are just talking about contradicting passages in a book, physical words written on a page that say two opposing things. A book. I feel bad if a few minor contradictions shakes the foundation of your faith, but there is nothing I can do. I guess this happens when a faith is wrapped tightly around an idea that does not exist in the physical world.

I dont believe in bigfoot, but if I met bigfoot, I wouldnt think my whole world has been demolished. I would just realize maybe I was misinformed about one small portion of it. Scriptural contradictions is your bigfoot Armitage.

Only the ignorant have the capacity to be offended.
#74  
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(07-Jul-2009 at 03:39)


Originally Posted by Armitage:
Why is this TRANSLATION OF ARABIC TO ENGLISH a point of discussion here??? It was Little Kid Izzy who came up with that. I never used that argument in this thread. Please refrain from bringing that up when no Muslim did that in this forum.
I think we are allowed to discuss anything that is on topic, especially when the guy who boasted he would explain any contradictions we found failed to explain a single one and then left the thread.

It is a common argument to say that the contradictions appear only through translation, so it is a valid topic for this thread.


Quote:
hopefully ill post my second official explanation soon
You haven't posted a first one yet...


Originally Posted by IctouCE:
Anytime a book is being discussed, and that book has been translated from another language, translation problems are ALWAYS important. It is a very common problem when it comes to translations. As someone who is fluent in more then one language, I can tell you that translations usually butcher the finer details.
Translation will always be factor, but the contradictions I listed were chosen to minimise the possibility of translation issues.

As another polyglot, I find that often entire concepts don't translate, never mind finer details. Have you ever met a Japanese describing a green traffic light as blue?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#75  
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Posts: 567/611
(07-Jul-2009 at 15:32)


I never used the "translation" argument to "explain" away the "supposed" contradictions. Thats the point. Get it and move over it because im not gonna use that. If others do let them, there are yet others who dont. Thats the point but you choose to talk about matters i never raised. If you want please talk all you want about how Muslims "explain away" "supposed" contradictions by issues of translation but anyone reading this thread shall know that im innoncient of this at this thread and time.

peace

PS: VoR, i post a first explanation. Get over it already. If you are not satisfied, meh, I cannot please everyone can I? And satisfying you means to submit myself to you, the supreme and all-knowing God, that you would truely love. hehe .. everyone in this forum who has tried to have a respectful discussion knows this egocentric trait of yours. Now wait till i post an explanation to the second "supposed" contradiction

peace

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#76  
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Posts: 5446/7006
(09-Jul-2009 at 02:11)


Quote:
I never used the "translation" argument to "explain" away the "supposed" contradictions. Thats the point. Get it and move over it because im not gonna use that.
What on earth makes you think this is all about you? It is a thread about contradictions in the Q'ran, not a thread about The Words of Armitage.


Quote:
VoR, i post a first explanation. Get over it already. If you are not satisfied, meh, I cannot please everyone can I?
Some crackpot excuse that Allah dabbled in a bit of multitasking is not an explanation, it is just a flight of imagination. Nor is it a matter of me being satisfied - your 'explanation' is contradicted by the Q'ran FFS!

Let me remind you of something you said earlier:-

VoR Gotterdammerung has posted a reply to your supposed contradiction. So lets play the game will we until we are all satisfied with the results! I mean lets stick with the one contradiction that is that creation of earth and heaven.

We will move on to the other supposed contradictions once everyone concludes that the point has been sufficiently cleared. That is the only way to proceed here and i wont let your be hasty here.


Of course, at that time you were just trying to evade 5 out of 6 contradictions and let Gotter deal with the first, but since neither of you can explain even the first then by your own words you have to come up with something more convincing.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#77  
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Posts: 1296/1637
(11-Jul-2009 at 00:34)
Re: Contradictions in the Quran

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Some crackpot excuse that Allah dabbled in a bit of multitasking is not an explanation, it is just a flight of imagination. Nor is it a matter of me being satisfied - your 'explanation' is contradicted by the Q'ran FFS!
What do you know about ancient, tribal Arabic prose anyway? We all know that you champion strict sylogisms, but that's not relevant here, is it? Why cannot a passage be fluid rather than binary? How would you know that you are not missing the point and meaning? Most certainly it is deeper than your narrow contemporary and insensitive face value. Your ciritcisms may be noted, but they are not binding. They are piss in the wind compared to the masses of readings done before you, by more qualified readers.

Ah but there are contradictions! That's irrelevant. That is like saying you can walk on your arms, so they must be legs. Um, no. Ever heard of a thing having 'multiple functions'? The book is not about strict sylogisms, so stop reading it in that narrow view.
#78  
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Posts: 5460/7006
(13-Jul-2009 at 02:40)


Quote:
Ah but there are contradictions! That's irrelevant.
It is not irrelevant. It is the entire point of the thread. Armitage declared the Q'ran to be perfect, free of contradictions, which proves it is Allahs work. In contrast to the Bible does contain contradictions, and is imperfect, and therefore cannot be Gods word.

In response, this thread was created to show that the Q'ran is imperfect and contains contradictions, so highlighting them is completely relevant.


Quote:
What do you know about ancient, tribal Arabic prose anyway?
Enough to know that 6 is not 8, and dust is not blood, even in ancient Arabic.


Quote:
Why cannot a passage be fluid rather than binary?
Are you suggesting that the Q'ran says whatever the reader wants it to say, that it is nothing but human interpretation of meaningless words?


Quote:
How would you know that you are not missing the point and meaning? Most certainly it is deeper than your narrow contemporary and insensitive face value.
Stop waffling Gotter. How the hell can you miss the point of numbers and concrete nouns?

You cannot 'miss the point' of 6, nor does it have a 'deeper meaning' of 8. Similary you cannot miss the point of blood, and it doesn't have a deeper meaning of dust.


Quote:
Ever heard of a thing having 'multiple functions'? The book is not about strict sylogisms, so stop reading it in that narrow view.
You don't know what a syllogism is. Nor does 6 have multiple functions as other numbers, or blood also function as dust or semen.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#79  
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