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Posts: 257/1019
Donated $1.20
(24-Jan-2003 at 22:10)


question Iraq and God

I just thought of something, wich I thought would be fun hearing an answer to.

I'm certain that there are christian americans who support the war on Iraq.
But, how can you support it without breaking on of the first "rules" of christianity, "thou shall not kill"?


"If guns kill people...Can I blame mispelled words on my pencil?
#1  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Mad Morgan Add Mad Morgan to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 6/183
(24-Jan-2003 at 22:25)
sad

well when you ask that question i wonder as an european can i say: You are doing the wrong thing. All nations in europe arent weary peacefull. so why do we direct all our anger againste the U.S... why noot the U.K? the U.K are suporting them in the security canucil(i dont know if that are the english word) and with that suport can they shit in the rest of the world. And then can we take E.U... Why arent E.U akting? dosent they have any power over the Britts?

I´m no american but i want to add a questoin to the first: Why dont the pope react!?

Signature suspended by SM Tengu for violating the forum's rules. [60 pixel rule]
#2  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Mat The Fox Add Mat The Fox to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 179/328
(24-Jan-2003 at 23:36)


Thou shalt not kill is very loosely translated. It goes more like, "thou shalt not murder" and fighting on the battlefield is not murder.

There are actually some criteria established by the Church which can be used to justify a war
1. A just war can only be waged as a last resort.
2. A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority.
3. A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered.
4. A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success.
5. The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace.
6. The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered.
7. The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants.


E.U. has little real power other than in economics... The Pope has spoken against pre-emptive action in Iraq.

"We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it."
#3  
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(24-Jan-2003 at 23:50)


Well, as english isnt my native language, I stand corrected. Also, the question why I asked especially the americans is that they are generally more frequently christian (atleast thats what I've figured by seing the posts here and other places).

But.
Im not sure, but atleast to my knowledge (as I wasnt there when the genesis was written), but the genesis was infact written before the church existed, right? So how can they tell you how you should interpret what is written, if it is written in a way that is easily understood?

And, I havent read the hebrew version or anything, but from what I can remember (not sure though), is that the swedish bible says "döda", wich means kill.
Any swedes may correct me here though.
But, if it is like you said, wouldnt it mean that a country that has an attitude that for example black people isnt worth anything, so it isnt illegal to kill them, it would infact mean that they are free prey even for christians, since murder means :

1: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
2: Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
3: A flock of crows. See Synonyms at flock1.

And, I'm not sure that any such country exist, but if it did, I doubt that if there were a god, he would allow it.


"If guns kill people...Can I blame mispelled words on my pencil?
#4  
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
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(25-Jan-2003 at 01:41)


is the war justified by christianity? are the soldiers dying in the name of God? no. of course not. theyre dying in the name of george freaking bush that has less than 2/3 my IQ.

s o u l f i r e

Last edited by Drizzzt, 25-Jan-2003 at 01:45.
#5  
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(25-Jan-2003 at 01:43)


Thats not what I asked. I asked what the american christians who supported the war used to justify themself. Not what christianity itself thought, or who the soldiers died for.


"If guns kill people...Can I blame mispelled words on my pencil?
#6  
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
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(25-Jan-2003 at 01:51)


some christians have some messed up opinions, such as the members of the infamous ku klux klan. they stand incorrect, and need to read the bible.

s o u l f i r e
#7  
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(25-Jan-2003 at 02:22)


Just to point out to the Christians where the Bible does not justify the war.

Quote:
1. A just war can only be waged as a last resort.
The war is definitely not a last resort. They don't even know if Iraq has nuclear weapons yet (and most people think they don't). There is no real justification of this war at all (other than breaking the OPEC monopoly).


Quote:
3. A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered.
Quote:
6. The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered.
Well, the injury so far suffered at the hands of Iraq is.. none.
So we would have to fight a war without killing a single soldier.

Well, a pre-emptive war throws that one out the window. According the the Bible, the U.S. are not justified until Iraq attacks first (and isn't that likely).

Quote:
7. The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants.
In the past, U.S. bombs have been known not to discriminate between civilians, military targets, and even Red Cross buildings and Red Cross ambulances!
Notably in the previous Gulf War, when American fighter planes targeted a strip of road filled with 200,000 refugees, killing over 20,000 of them.

Interesting fact: Iraq is the most stable regime in the Middle East. The LEAST unstable. Why attack them? To destabilise the region? I think so...

"America was designed by genuises so that it could be operated by idiots."
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(25-Jan-2003 at 03:15)
heheh...good to know so many people have read some works by good old thomas acquines
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(25-Jan-2003 at 15:00)


I remember that the pope himself prayed for a peacefull solving, sometime ago.

It's alright to hate George W. Bush
SM-barkeep, Rest in Peace YYA - Alliance still ruin utopian fun, The god of typos, WARNING!!! Posting at UT makes addictive

#10  
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(25-Jan-2003 at 15:56)
I don't think this is a holy war at all............................................... ....................................unless Oil is holy.....
#11  
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(26-Jan-2003 at 04:16)


There will never be an answer, as long as that war mongrel Bush is in office, he will forever be fighting wars in different countries under the name of terrorism.
Ask yourselves this question, why did suddenyl the states become soo worried of terrorism, if Saddam had weapons, and was indeed crazy, don't you think he would have done something by now?
I mean this guy doesn't play games here, he already killed his own people, he doesn't give a shit about them, nuking the states and expecting a retal would be his last of worries, please spare me from the American Governments idiocy.

Long Live The Red!!!
#12  
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(26-Jan-2003 at 05:35)
Re: Iraq and God

Quote:
(Originally posted by Mad Morgan)

I just thought of something, wich I thought would be fun hearing an answer to.

I'm certain that there are christian americans who support the war on Iraq.
But, how can you support it without breaking on of the first "rules" of christianity, "thou shall not kill"?
I suppose in this case, the ends justifies the means. Meaning by killing a few in the short run, you save the lives of many in the long run.

So in this situation, by eliminating terrorists in iraq (and unfortunately civilians in casualties of war), it prevents the future deaths of many more civilians.

I am not american but am a christian, and given a situation where killing some terrorists will later save the lives of millions of civilians, I would support taking out the terrorists. But that is in a "perfect" situation, and irl there are millions of things that can and do go wrong.
#13  
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(26-Jan-2003 at 06:54)


Quote:
(Originally posted by shaggers)

Ask yourselves this question, why did suddenyl the states become soo worried of terrorism
I will give you three numbers that can answer that question.
9/11
#14  
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(Posted as SideshowCMD)
Posts: 46/212
(26-Jan-2003 at 07:11)


Donalbain is right. For a long time, Americans have been held ignorant of their political and military enemies. We have become a proud people, many thought that the U.S. was invincible (I am not one of those people, nor was I). The events of September 11th opened our eyes, not to a NEW threat, but one that had existed, but had been sugar-coated by the media to mask the fact that Clinton took millions of dollars out of the military's budget and put it elsewhere. The U.S. military and special forces such as the CIA, FBI, INS, SS (secret service), etc. were all weakened as a result.

9-11-2001 reopened the idea that America needed to defend itself. So, for a while, there will be many Presidents who "declare wars" or special operations in terrorist nations in the name of American defense.
#15  
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
Posts: 937/3305
Donated $2.20
(26-Jan-2003 at 10:15)


i HOPE that we dont get another dubya after he's kicked out.

s o u l f i r e
#16  
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(Posted as greeney)
Posts: 51/3642
(27-Jan-2003 at 01:37)


Re: Iraq and God

Quote:
(Originally posted by Mad Morgan)

I just thought of something, wich I thought would be fun hearing an answer to.

I'm certain that there are christian americans who support the war on Iraq.
But, how can you support it without breaking on of the first "rules" of christianity, "thou shall not kill"?
what about every war going on for the last 2003 years?
what about all the times christians killed jews?
what about defending the lives of your people?
what about making sure your people are safe from further harm?
#17  
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(27-Jan-2003 at 02:06)


This thread has gone WAY off-topic, MM was trying to get American Christians to just the War WITH RELIGION, not to talk about oil, the stupidity of Dubya, Clinton, the weakening of the military, the American Empire or 9-11-01, none of which have any significance to the original question posed. How do American Christians justify a war with Iraq without violating the First Commandment (which translates to 'Thou shalt do no murder' in English)?

I would also like to say that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9-11, Hussein does not support al-Qaeda. The reason is simple; he wishes to run a secular state, whereas al-Qaeda is a fundamentalist terrorist organization. Only al-Qaeda and the Taliban can be held responsible for 9-11-01.
#18  
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(27-Jan-2003 at 05:47)
i am not christian, but i know for a fact that THE POPE HAS COME OUT AGAINST A WAR ON IRAQ---hes quoted as saying that a war with iraq would be the destruction of human rights and the failure of mankind.
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Posts: 232/507
(27-Jan-2003 at 12:00)


Ignoring Catholicism for a moment, as it has a defined leader who tells everyone what to do, how would an American Protestant Christian justify it (most American Christians are Protestant, anyway).
#20  
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