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(Posted as jh211988)
(User is Banned)
Posts: 126/2492
(24-Jun-2003 at 16:26)


I will be glad to expand then.

God appears differently to different people coz' the first person in a religion to have contacted/seen him will be first very surprised. Then he goes around the whole village telling his story, exaggerating along the way, like in Hinduism, "He had a nose of an elephant(to say that He had a big nose), round eyes of a lion(to say He had large round fearful eyes)" and so on.

That is why Western religion that originated in the Mid-East and the West have less exaggarated looks/no looks while religion from other places have exaggarated. It is all caused by colorful language.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
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(24-Jun-2003 at 17:02)


Quote:
(Originally posted by jh211988)

I will be glad to expand then.

God appears differently to different people coz' the first person in a religion to have contacted/seen him will be first very surprised. Then he goes around the whole village telling his story, exaggerating along the way, like in Hinduism, "He had a nose of an elephant(to say that He had a big nose), round eyes of a lion(to say He had large round fearful eyes)" and so on.

That is why Western religion that originated in the Mid-East and the West have less exaggarated looks/no looks while religion from other places have exaggarated. It is all caused by colorful language.
Nice theory but then folowing a religion would be stupid cos theere would be no way to know which religion is the most accurate
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(24-Jun-2003 at 18:28)


lazy smile

Everyone keeps bringing religion into this. Yet, you can believe in God without being Christian, Jew, Jedi, etc. Most religions are based on God and his existence. Whether we choose to believe in God or not is our choice, as is religion. And since religions are so loving, then why have the worlds biggest wars been fought over religion?

You can only prove God exists to yourself. We have seen this be the case in this topic.

Existentialism-A philosophy that emphasizes the uniqueness and isolation of the individual experience in a hostile or indifferent manner, stresses freedom of choice and responsibility for the consequences of one's acts.
(For some good reading, try _The_Wall_ by Sartre.)

I believe in God. I think everyone should believe what they want to. And stop worrying if someone thinks differently than you. It is your experience. God Bless[please note the condescending humor]

..::Think For Yourself::..
DAMN YOU! Let the rabbits wear glasses...

Last edited by h a z e, 24-Jun-2003 at 18:32.
#443  
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(25-Jun-2003 at 00:13)


DHoffryn - In my narrow minded opinion most religions are very similar. Look hard enough and most are based around the golden rule. (don't go quoting some tribal nonsense to try to prove me wrong here..)

Thus, once you have realized God, I consider a choice of religion kind of a cultural thing.

I mean, if you wanted to form your own religion based around your own views of God with the aim of being "accurate" that's all well and good. But, the Church is more than a building. It is a community of believers and to be able to be part of such a community and to share in its strength is a strong need for most men. And, once again, in my narrowly minded opinion, God isn't about to go and throw you to the lions for having gotten one element of history off in one way or another. In my mind the golden rule itself is unlikely to have been changed in all the years gone by, and so pursuing that at least should keep God's temper with you at a reasonable level.

"We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it."
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(Posted as WillowWalker)
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(25-Jun-2003 at 00:22)
Can you prove God(ess) exists?

Can you prove s/he doesn't?

Answer that. That's how I stay away from the first question.
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(Posted as Steiger)
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(26-Jun-2003 at 07:37)


Quote:
Can you prove s/he doesn't?
Let's just say there is no God.

It's impossible to prove nothingness or something that never existed in the first place.

Prove that I'm not God.

How do you know she's a Witch?
#446  
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(30-Jun-2003 at 08:29)


If you consider that God is by definition omnipotent, I can prove to you through logic that he does not exist.

This may still mean that a God could exist, but this proof will eliminate the possibility of the existence of an all-powerful God.

Can God create an unbreakable rock?

We'll assume he can.

Can God break this rock, once he has created it?

If no: then he is not omnipotent.
If yes: then he is not omnipotent, since he cannot create an unbreakable rock.

There you have it, through pure logic, proof that the God of Christian definition (omnipotent) cannot possibly exist.

"America was designed by genuises so that it could be operated by idiots."
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(01-Jul-2003 at 05:16)


but no rock is unbreakable

militant Liberal Christian..funny string of words I got there
"when life gives you Lemons eat them whole..Peal and all"
-the great Ipoc
UNITE! SPARK THE FIRE!
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(01-Jul-2003 at 23:16)


Then you have concluded yourself that God is not omnipotent, and the Christian definition of an omnipotent God is false.

"America was designed by genuises so that it could be operated by idiots."
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(02-Jul-2003 at 01:09)


the word 'faith' seems to suggest (to me at least), that when it comes to the question of wether god exists or not, the question is irrelevant to someone who truly belives, as they have the faith to accept god's existence without the need of proof.

Ignorance, the root and the stem of every evil - Plato
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
Only Sheep need a shepherd!
Religion is like communism: Good idea, bad execution
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(02-Jul-2003 at 02:41)


Quote:
(Originally posted by DavidFF7)

Then you have concluded yourself that God is not omnipotent, and the Christian definition of an omnipotent God is false.
How? You have to explain the logic to me because I'm not understanding

militant Liberal Christian..funny string of words I got there
"when life gives you Lemons eat them whole..Peal and all"
-the great Ipoc
UNITE! SPARK THE FIRE!
#451  
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(02-Jul-2003 at 06:01)


Ok, the Christian claim goes that God is omnipotent, meaning it is in his power to do ANYTHING, no exceptions. This is what the Bible says on multiple accounts, and this is the commonly accepted definition.

Now I will tell you why God cannot do anything: he cannot create an unbreakable rock, since he would be able to break it (since he is all-powerful).
And if he truly were able to create this unbreakable rock, then he couldn't break it (so he would not be all powerful).

Either way, he loses and is incapable of doing something.
This makes him not all-powerful.

Ask your priest about this one and see what he says. =P

"America was designed by genuises so that it could be operated by idiots."
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(02-Jul-2003 at 06:33)


But their is no such thing as an unbreakable rock. That's like claiming that because God can't make anything colder than absolute zero he is not omnipotent.

"We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it."
#453  
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(02-Jul-2003 at 07:30)


Why can there not be such a thing as an unbreakable rock? You have no way of knowing this.

And are you saying that God cannot break the laws of science? Well, I have news for you: reviving the dead is breaking the laws of science. So are many other things in the Bible. So either decide that he can or he can't. Either way it works to the same conclusion: that God cannot possibly be omnipotent,

"America was designed by genuises so that it could be operated by idiots."
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(03-Jul-2003 at 05:41)


why would god make an unbreakable rock? unbreakable to people? who judges it's unbreakableness?

militant Liberal Christian..funny string of words I got there
"when life gives you Lemons eat them whole..Peal and all"
-the great Ipoc
UNITE! SPARK THE FIRE!
#455  
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(03-Jul-2003 at 09:29)


Quote:
(Originally posted by DavidFF7)

Why can there not be such a thing as an unbreakable rock? You have no way of knowing this.

And are you saying that God cannot break the laws of science? Well, I have news for you: reviving the dead is breaking the laws of science. So are many other things in the Bible. So either decide that he can or he can't. Either way it works to the same conclusion: that God cannot possibly be omnipotent,
God can break the laws that He himself created.

Why should He do what you ask though? As you said yourself, reviving of the dead is breaking the laws of science. Proof of His omnipotence is right there.

By trying to fit God into the logic of your own mind you merely trap yourself. Who's to say that God must fit into the rules you live by? Such logic may impress you, but proof by logic is no proof at all. Logically, our planet shouldn't exist, here exactly at the right distance from the sun, with exactly enough of the correct elements to create AND SUSTAIN life. Any scientist, if faced with only the LOGIC of a living planet, would have to admit that it would be impossible. Why then do we accept the possibility of it existing? Because we have PROOF that we stand on a planet that has life. That proof is tangible and not a result of convulated logic.

Proof of God's existance or non-existance should in the same way be tangible, and that isn't possible if He chooses to avoid it. Logic will not proof or disproof the existance of God.

-Part of the UT Christian Community
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(03-Jul-2003 at 20:57)


Quote:
(Originally posted by jahwarrior)

why would god make an unbreakable rock? unbreakable to people? who judges it's unbreakableness?
It's just a hypothetical example proving that nothing can be omnipotent, since omnipotency is self-contradicting and thus a paradox.

Nobody judges a rock's unbreakableness. It simply cannot be broken by any means.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Ketam)

God can break the laws that He himself created.

Why should He do what you ask though? As you said yourself, reviving of the dead is breaking the laws of science. Proof of His omnipotence is right there.

Reviving the dead is indeed breaking the laws of science. But that's not proof of God's omnipotence. This was in an earlier thread (or maybe this one), but to disprove something it need only happen once. To prove something it need happen every time. This means you must always demonstrate God's omnipotence, which is impossible, while I only have to give one example of his lack of omnipotence (which I already did).


Quote:
By trying to fit God into the logic of your own mind you merely trap yourself. Who's to say that God must fit into the rules you live by? Such logic may impress you, but proof by logic is no proof at all. Logically, our planet shouldn't exist, here exactly at the right distance from the sun, with exactly enough of the correct elements to create AND SUSTAIN life. Any scientist, if faced with only the LOGIC of a living planet, would have to admit that it would be impossible. Why then do we accept the possibility of it existing? Because we have PROOF that we stand on a planet that has life. That proof is tangible and not a result of convulated logic.
So basically you are denying my logical proof (and it is a proof) with faith and convoluted non-sense and speculation. I have given logic, it stands as you have not struck it down.

"America was designed by genuises so that it could be operated by idiots."
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(04-Jul-2003 at 01:35)


Quote:
(Originally posted by DavidFF7)

Reviving the dead is indeed breaking the laws of science. But that's not proof of God's omnipotence. This was in an earlier thread (or maybe this one), but to disprove something it need only happen once. To prove something it need happen every time. This means you must always demonstrate God's omnipotence, which is impossible, while I only have to give one example of his lack of omnipotence (which I already did).
Your example is based on faulty logic in the first place. Creating such a 'test' with the sole purpose of 'disproving' something that you already have decided does not exist is not factual testing at all. The situation is similar to this one, did life emerge from non-living matter? I have yet to here anyone claim that proving this statement requires life to always emerge from non-living matter. I could state that, if at THIS particular instant in time, all around the world, we cannot find any examples of life emerging from non-living matter, that disproves the statement. Logically, it would be true, if life could emerge from non-living matter, it should be emerging from non-living matter, if not constantly, then fairly often. I have, not one, but many examples of non-living matter that does not, has not, and will not change into living matter.

Does that in any way disprove the theory of evolution? Of course not, because the logic in itself is faulty, trying to disprove a theory by creating farcical conditions. Same thing with your rock example, you are creating farcical conditions to try and 'prove' that God cannot be omnipotent. Understand me here, God is equivalent to omnipotence, that's what makes Him God. God does not have to be all-good, or fair, or kind, or any of those things, but because He is God, He HAS to be omnipotent, it's in the job description.



Quote:
So basically you are denying my logical proof (and it is a proof) with faith and convoluted non-sense and speculation. I have given logic, it stands as you have not struck it down.
It is my opinion that it is you who is trying to use convulated logic to CREATE proof of the non-existance of God. Yes, I base my opinions largely on faith. So do you, in case you haven't noticed. You have FAITH that what scientists tell you is true, you have FAITH that what your eyes see and ears hear are actually happening (and not being fed directly to your brain by some computer), you have FAITH that your logic is logical.

The world operates on faith, any event can be taken to mean any number of things, depending on what you believe in the first place. As a Dilbert comic once went, "I'm not going to bother actually RESEARCHING statistics, because everybody only accepts statistics that agree with their opinions. Instead, I'll just make up statistics, it's easier, and it doesn't make a difference anyway." An example would be the archeological debate between the proponents of creation and evolution. Any data that supports creation is discarded be evolutionists as faulty, and vice-versa. Just because something is based on faith has no bearing on it's truth.

-Part of the UT Christian Community
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(Posted as dravid)
Posts: 539/1184
(04-Jul-2003 at 05:46)
A few years ago an Atheist Logician (a logic expert) asked this question to prove the lack of the existence of God. He knew that the question was faulty, and, therefore, as a paradox, should cease to exist, but he also knew that people have a tendency to try and answer every question, without checking the validity of the question itself. Thus he began the cancer of the question "Can God make a rock he can't lift?" that he hoped would consume society, and eliminate God from the existence of our minds.

So yes this quesion and any like it (like can God make a rock that he can't break) are actually 'faulty'.

Its like saying can God make a square with 5 sides, or can God make an object that is 5 grams in colour. the statements when you actually look at them are meaningless/nonsense. Lets take the unliftable rock example:

Finite mass is a property of all physical objects. Rocks are physical objects. Therefore, any rock will have a mass, but it will be a finite mass. There is simply no such thing as an item with the property of infinite mass. God can indeed pick up any object that He can possibly create, and the whole question is irrelevant (that is, nonsensical) for "objects" that are impossible to create.
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