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(Posted as immortalvraak)
Posts: 68/1299
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(06-Dec-2002 at 08:02)


Quote:
(Originally posted by DavidFF7)



Wrong. Without religion, people have less motives to be religious fanatics (in fact, none really that I can think of).
Welcome to human society. If they don't use religion as an excuse, they'll find something else. LIVE WITH IT.


Quote:
True. I disrregard those forms. I am not a Buddhist anyway, I am an atheist I am just saying Buddhism is about the only religion that I know that doesn't tell believers to think that their religion is 'right' and others are infidels (Islam), or nonbelievers will go to hell for their sins (Christianity), etc. these religions state that it is bad not to be a part of them. Buddhism doesn't condemn you to eternal damnation for being an atheist.
Sort of. They state that if you are not able to purify yourself during your life you will have to reincarnate. Your eternal damnation: living life.. OVER and OVER and OVER again until you get it right. Nonbelievers of Buddhism end up "repeating" reincarnation continuously, in their opinion.

Quote:
And Azn, the reason I concentrate on the negative effects of religion is the same reason one would concentrate on the negative effects of any force: to see what effect it is having on the world. We are not here to discuss the positives, since the general concensus is that everyone agrees on those, and they are not up for debate. The negatives are up for debate, that is why I post them (here, in the US thread, and in any thread for that matter), because those are the issues that are disagreed on, not the positive ones.
And it's pretty much useless if you have a hard-core right-wing authoritarian (like myself) arguing against a left-wing liberal.. It's simply.. useless. We'll continuously debate and duel it with facts, and we'll probably end up with an endless plethora of attacks, counterattacks, and et cetera. And the negatives are not the only things up for debate, the positives can be as well. And they wouldn't be disagreed on if people wouldn't try to make trouble and go digging for facts to counter whatever one has said.

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#21  
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(Posted as Kyrina)
Posts: 88/329
(06-Dec-2002 at 08:07)


careless

Don't we have plenty of threads about religion/christianity. Why another one.

LVL 80 Draenei Shaman
Alliance FTW!!!

Last edited by Tari, 06-Dec-2002 at 08:08.
#22  
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(06-Dec-2002 at 08:25)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Kyrina)

Don't we have plenty of threads about religion/christianity. Why another one.
It's an interesting debate, beats arguieng which is better, CS or DOD






dod of course

The only ones who see the end of war are dead
God did not create humans, humans created God
#23  
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
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(06-Dec-2002 at 08:31)


every other christian thread is too general to discuss anything else. plus, i noticed that they all died off (all but creation vs. evolution)

s o u l f i r e
#24  
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(06-Dec-2002 at 08:31)


freak

Because religion is foolish, and must be wiped out immidiatly...

Nah, seriously, you must be able to see that, most of the bad things in this world has been created be religion in all of it's forms - Almost every conflict has been about that, in one way or another. And I'm not going to say that I respect people that are religious, because I don't - I just find it plain foolish.

Of course, the people like immortalvraak, who has been severely brainwashed by someone (and propably believe in death penalty as well), are forgiven in my book, as it is not their own fault. Don't you see that we have to let go of all this stuff to really live? If we wander around, looking forward to the life after this, we are only spending a whole lot of years waiting. And then we forget to live. Nietzsche generally said this. Blah, religions about afterlife was invented because of the real life being so shitty.

"God is dead" - Friedrich Nietzsche

KoH, nice arguments...

Kv1z4tz
[size=0.1]I want to go down in history as a chapter marked miscellaneous - Staceyann Chin[/size]
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(Posted as immortalvraak)
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(06-Dec-2002 at 08:34)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kv1z4tz)


"God is dead" - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Nietzsche was a fool" -- Leo Tolstoy

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#26  
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(Posted as Kyrina)
Posts: 89/329
(06-Dec-2002 at 09:07)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kv1z4tz)

I'm not going to say that I respect people that are religious, because I don't - I just find it plain foolish.
I find it hard to have respect for people who think this way. It doesn't affect you why should you care or even change how you feel about someone, based on what they believe.

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#27  
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(Posted as Maarteas X)
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(06-Dec-2002 at 09:13)


indeed, religion has nothing to do with respecting of a person, you can disrespect someone for his actions or his character. but you can't disrespect him for it, only respect it IMHO

Host of Big Brother UT, Only sander is allowed to Warn me
#28  
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(06-Dec-2002 at 17:10)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kv1z4tz)
Because religion is foolish, and must be wiped out immidiatly...

Nah, seriously, you must be able to see that, most of the bad things in this world has been created be religion in all of it's forms - Almost every conflict has been about that, in one way or another. And I'm not going to say that I respect people that are religious, because I don't - I just find it plain foolish.

Of course, the people like immortalvraak, who has been severely brainwashed by someone (and propably believe in death penalty as well), are forgiven in my book, as it is not their own fault. Don't you see that we have to let go of all this stuff to really live? If we wander around, looking forward to the life after this, we are only spending a whole lot of years waiting. And then we forget to live. Nietzsche generally said this. Blah, religions about afterlife was invented because of the real life being so shitty.

"God is dead" - Friedrich Nietzsche

KoH, nice arguments...
a) No about 3/5 of the conflicts "caused by religion" (that I can think of) were actually just facades for another cause, that without religion would've still went on with another. The Crusades is one.
b) What about the good religions have done acrss the world?
c) Why is it so hard for the possibility of any highjer being[s]?
d) Maybe you're the one who's brainwashed? Have you ever thought of that? At least I'm open to other things and possibilities. You just find the first excuse you see as one to persecute religions for the reason that you think it's "foolish"?
e) Ever hear of paschal's wager?
f) Why is a religion "foolish"? Most of them simply preach good morals. Why is that bad?
-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-
Quote:
I would be grateful if you expanded on your topic.
The Spanish Inquisition was a tool for expansion of goverment power. The Spanish goverment was strongly tied to the Catholic church in Spain, which had eventually been also corrupted (like all things, churches do get corrupted). With the church under heavy govermental influence, they had extended influence under all Catholics. The goverment wanted to expand that influence over the people, by making all Catholics. That way, the Spanish had more power to fight against the French at that time.

Religion in that scenario was a tool. Without religion, there would've still been something else there as a facade.

In brightest day, in blackest night, No evil shall escape my sight.
Let those who worship evil's might, Beware my power, Green Lantern's Light
Slave of Justara
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#29  
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(06-Dec-2002 at 21:56)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Drizzt)



christianity is a religion that stresses peace among the people. some of the more famous prinicples of christianity is "love your enemy". i believe that the crusades were stupid. religion is NOT an excuse to go around killing people. if you're christian, the last thing you should do is kill someone. what is christianity today?

you think that god didn't create humans, but humans created god. maybe ur right, but i believe that the big bang didn't result to humans, rather humans came up with the big bang.
When a certain teaching of a religion is not observed by the followers of that religion, it is generally not counted as a true part of that religion, as religion can be defined only through the actions of adherents. Thus, the teaching to both Jews and Christians that they should be ready to sacrifice even their children if the Lord asks them to is really ignored by a majority of Jews and Christians. I sincerely doubt that a follower of either religion would be prepared to sacrifice their own child if their priest/rabbi/rector/etc. told them it was the will of God.
Peace with others, even non-Christians, may be one of Christianity's many teachings. Others include such lessons that unbelievers and those perceived to be "wicked" according to Judeo-Christian morality shall be smote. It is obvious that throughout the history of Christianity, the latter teaching has been taken far more seriously than the former, as the numerous incidents of violence in the name of Christ (the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch trials, and the destruction of ancient cultural traditions among the "less advanced" peoples of African, South American, and some Asian countries by missionaries come to mind). If Christians are not prepared to place God's will for peace above God's will to destroy those who oppose him, why should those of us who are trying to form an objective opinion about Christianity take the professed desire of Christiainity for peace seriously?

KoH
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
#30  
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(06-Dec-2002 at 22:28)


IF you're going to define a religion by the people who practice it, be ready to form thousands of different opinions, for there are thousands of people interpreting and practicing Christianity thousands of diffferent ways.

In brightest day, in blackest night, No evil shall escape my sight.
Let those who worship evil's might, Beware my power, Green Lantern's Light
Slave of Justara
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#31  
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
Posts: 556/3305
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(07-Dec-2002 at 00:51)


Quote:
(Originally posted by KeeperOfHell)
Peace with others, even non-Christians, may be one of Christianity's many teachings. Others include such lessons that unbelievers and those perceived to be "wicked" according to Judeo-Christian morality shall be smote. It is obvious that throughout the history of Christianity, the latter teaching has been taken far more seriously than the former, as the numerous incidents of violence in the name of Christ (the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch trials, and the destruction of ancient cultural traditions among the "less advanced" peoples of African, South American, and some Asian countries by missionaries come to mind). If Christians are not prepared to place God's will for peace above God's will to destroy those who oppose him, why should those of us who are trying to form an objective opinion about Christianity take the professed desire of Christiainity for peace seriously?
salem witch trials- not true christianity.
crusades- not true christianity either.
haulocaust- nope
expanding terroritory, taking over areas- no
discrimination of homosexuals- no

what would jesus have done? he set an example that all christians should follow. he wouldnt have done any of the above, and christians SHOULDNT do any of the above. that's the deal with christianity

s o u l f i r e
#32  
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(07-Dec-2002 at 03:03)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Drizzt)
haulocaust- nope
I read somewhere that the Catholic Church at first openly supported the Holocaust but after seeing that a huge war was occuring over it, they backed out.

The only ones who see the end of war are dead
God did not create humans, humans created God
#33  
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(07-Dec-2002 at 03:32)
religion can be used for good and it can be used for bad.

Religion is often used to give justification to how or why a persons feels a certain way. preachers(ministers...etc) often give their personal views to there congregation and that affects their views on the world. Many people believe that homosexuality is wrong because it is a sin against god. The government might have used the inquisition to solidify their power, but they were only able to accomplish it because they used religion as a justification so the masses would accept what they were doing.

I could be wrong But a lot of the media with bin laden that i hear about has him calling on muslims to attack the u.s. as their duty to God.

If you want to kill someone but the law of man says you shouldn't most ppl refrain from doing it, but if their religion in some way says it is not only alright but it is their duty to do so and that to not do so in accordance with the law of man would be evil, well then you gotta worry about that person murdering.

What i'm getting at is that religion might not be the only cause or reason for why these things happen but it really helps convince people to jump on the bandwagon. Instead of being rational about the reasons they can jump on the god bandwagon and say that God commands it, and ltos of people being the herd animals that most humans are go along with it. You can't just define a religion by all the good things in it, those who claim to be of that religion and do bad things in it's name are often included in that religion when other people think about it.
#34  
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(07-Dec-2002 at 03:35)


Quote:
How does everyone feel about christianity? Do you think it's reasonable or unreasonable? Do you have anything against christianity?
Well christianity is alot like Mountain Dew: Code Red©. Almost everyone can accept its existance, most can appreciate it, for a few its the ONLY true option, but you dont have to like it because there are other things one can choose. So is all upto the individual.

My only other opinion on it is that it should not be forced upon others.
#35  
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(07-Dec-2002 at 04:59)
Im a christian myself and i dont force anything on anyone..and i find its almost impossible to do so..unless you use brainwashing (like communists used to,which was wrong)

One thing ive learned is christianity in its reality is not a religion...The bible says the only religion thats good is helping the homeless and orphans. Christianity is not about rules and regulations..its about a relationship with god through jesus. When you say christianity is a religion i do not identify with that..i despise the word religion...its like a title (Dr,Mr) It doesnt really define your life. Your faith defnes your life..eeryone has faith in something at some point.

Anyway to stop getting off point. You will find pretty much all of the problems caused by so called christians are caused by people who think chrisatianity is a religion a set of rules and regulations.

Its not its much better than that..I challenge you to look for yourself
#36  
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(07-Dec-2002 at 06:40)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kv1z4tz)
Because religion is foolish, and must be wiped out immidiatly...

Nah, seriously, you must be able to see that, most of the bad things in this world has been created be religion in all of it's forms - Almost every conflict has been about that, in one way or another. And I'm not going to say that I respect people that are religious, because I don't - I just find it plain foolish.
Ok, I have some problems with this statement. While I do not find it easy to believe that billions of people in the world believe in God, fact is, they do.
And I have plenty of religious friends that I consider intelligent, and do not let religion get in their way of science (none have ever told me that evolution is proposterous just because the bible says so).

While I wouldn't mind if religion were suddenly wiped out, I don't see how it would happen, it's going to go on if you forbid it or not. Why did Jews practice their religion in Nazi Poland/Holland/Hungary even when they could be caught and killed for their practices? They were pretty damned devoted, that's why.
Fact is, people believe what they want, and you got to let them believe that, and not force your opinions and just say they are flat out 'wrong'. Because first of all, you can't really know if they are wrong or not since neither side has conclusive evidence (debate has gone on for centuries with no resolution...) and second of all, the intolerant atheist is worse than the tolerant believer. At least one has an open mind to listen to the other side's reasoning.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Wally)
One thing ive learned is christianity in its reality is not a religion
What it is then? A cult? A way of life?

"America was designed by genuises so that it could be operated by idiots."
#37  
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Old UWS
(Posted as UgWantSandwich)
Posts: 53/332
(07-Dec-2002 at 06:54)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Wally)
One thing ive learned is christianity in its reality is not a religion
It is a religion and has been so and has been viewed so for thousands of years. Perhaps you think it's a cult, it's not.

cult ( P )Pronunciation Key(klt)n.
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

Christianity in it's normal form is not extremist or (IMHO) false. I notice you say it's not a religion.....tell me, does it fit in with one of these definitions?

re·li·gion ( P )Pronunciation Key(r-ljn)n.

a) Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b) A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship

I myself do hold beliefs similar to yours. Not forcing my beliefs upon anyone etc. but I stll consider it a religion.

/
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#38  
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(07-Dec-2002 at 20:03)
Quote:
(Originally posted by gregorclegane)

religion can be used for good and it can be used for bad.
very true with more than just religion. You must be careful when you label something as general as religion as good, or bad for that matter. Look at the intent of the religion and the people who have power.

Quote:
(Originally posted by gregorclegane)

Religion is often used to give justification to how or why a persons feels a certain way. preachers(ministers...etc) often give their personal views to there congregation and that affects their views on the world. Many people believe that homosexuality is wrong because it is a sin against god. The government might have used the inquisition to solidify their power, but they were only able to accomplish it because they used religion as a justification so the masses would accept what they were doing.
As it was stated before, just because religion was used in it, doesnt mean that if you were to take it away it would not still happen

Quote:
(Originally posted by gregorclegane)

I could be wrong But a lot of the media with bin laden that i hear about has him calling on muslims to attack the u.s. as their duty to God.
Thats what I would cal extremism, and any kind of extremism (religous, political, etc) is not good for anybody.

Quote:
(Originally posted by gregorclegane)

What i'm getting at is that religion might not be the only cause or reason for why these things happen but it really helps convince people to jump on the bandwagon. Instead of being rational about the reasons they can jump on the god bandwagon and say that God commands it, and ltos of people being the herd animals that most humans are go along with it. You can't just define a religion by all the good things in it, those who claim to be of that religion and do bad things in it's name are often included in that religion when other people think about it.
That is true. People need to think about what they are doing before they start a romanticised idea such as jihad. bin Landen has been calling for a jihad and that is not a smart thing to do. For one, most arabs are not that extreme. Their GOVERNMENT (in many cases, secular) is extremist and thus all their school books, news, and the like project Isreal and the U.S. as a big bully. The other reason that a jihad would be a stupid thing is that the U.S. could single-handedly take out the middle east even without nukes. Their military is so powerful, it could take on the most of the world without reajusting the econemy.
#39  
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(07-Dec-2002 at 20:32)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Kv1z4tz)

Because religion is foolish, and must be wiped out immidiatly...

Nah, seriously, you must be able to see that, most of the bad things in this world has been created be religion in all of it's forms - Almost every conflict has been about that, in one way or another. And I'm not going to say that I respect people that are religious, because I don't - I just find it plain foolish.
It is foolish to think that you could wipe out religion in the first place. Second, even if you do the world would not change much, except organized care and compassion would be gone. Third, that has already been tried before. The best example is Soviet Russia. 20 million innocent lives gone. Even those religous people who practiced in secret, devoted to their country, were rooted out. Neighbors afraid of each other because you don't know who will report you. Kids were encouraged to tell on their parents. Not to mention the poor lives that the people lived while being told that they were the richest in the world. Meanwhile the government enjoyed lots of money and luxeries. Still, when the ban on religion was lifted, the people still believed in the same religion. In fact, it was found that the number of Christians in the country had grown an incredible amount.

Its entirely apprpriate to look at the good that has come out of religion. After all, the topic is not "why religion is evil." I ask you what has the atheist community ever done for society? I'm not talking about atheists by themselves, I mean an organized group. Wait a second, you mean there is no club called Athiests for the Betterment of People? Maybe thats because atheism does nothing to unite people. When I go to church every week, I go and talk with the people who live in my community. When someone they know has a problem, the church helps. One example is a woman who lost everything in a divorce. She had no money, no car, no food. Only an apartment that housed all 4 of her children. The family had to scavenge through trash cans for food. When somone at the church noticed that she had stopped coming, they sent someone to find out if she is alright. When she saw the condition of the family, she left without saying a word. The very next day loads of food were brought in, school supplies, everything you could imagine. Even a car was given to the family. I know dozens of similar stories but not one with an athiest organization invlolved. In fact, I don't know of any athiest organizations. Its those devoted to their religion that leave their home for areas such as Oxaca, Mexico. I had the privlege of going on one of these trips myself. We went to the remote town of Nuccxa. For a week the docters that were part of the trip worked in the community taking thier expertise to benefit the poor Mexicans at no charge. While we were there, a children's program as in action, the school was repainted, and we taught about how to replant the trees in an area where vast forests were cut down. Tell me, who is the one that helps the world, and who is the one that saparates people.
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