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Posts: 30/36
(15-Jan-2003 at 21:12)
I don't really know what I believe. I considered myself a Christian for about 8 years and I went to church pretty much every sunday. But now I think about everything and it doesn't make sense to me. Also I belive if there was no relgion then there would be a lot less wars happening in the world or already happened. If there was no relgion there quite possibly would have been genocide in WW2 because there would be no Jewish people. If there was no relgion there would't have been a crusades in the olden times and there would't be as much turmoil in the middle east these days because they fight over the "holy land" also if I'm not mistaken thats the same thing the crusades were for.
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(15-Jan-2003 at 21:16)


The Bible quotes Jesus Christ as having said, "Seek me not in religion but in me."

If it works for them, they will use it.
If it doesn't work for them, they may still use it.
#42  
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(Posted as The Watchmaker)
Posts: 30/282
(15-Jan-2003 at 21:19)


smile I also believe

A mathematician has calculated that for simply 40 of the prophecies to be fulfilled its about a trillion trillion trillion trillion etc etc.

And it is thought that he may have fulfilled up to 150....

BUT you say that he must have made his life on the prophecies. HOW CAN HE CONTROL HIS BIRTH???
he can't.


But if you don't believe, fine. There is very little we can do for you except to pray for you and hope that you change your mind

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#43  
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Posts: 27/41
(15-Jan-2003 at 21:27)
I dont have to believe in God, God believes in me.. or something like that. WHOHOO!
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Posts: 56/673
(15-Jan-2003 at 21:37)


Quote:
But if you don't believe, fine. There is very little we can do for you except to pray for you and hope that you change your mind
You believe praying for us is going to do anything? That's a plain waste of time. You're like a kid I know at school, or a bunch actually. 'I'll be praying for you', etc, that really just angers me rather than anything else. It's like trying to force your religion onto someone through a spiritual way. That's rude and inconsiderate. If I wanted someone to pray for me I'd ask them to. Otherwise keep those words to yourself.

Quote:
A mathematician has calculated that for simply 40 of the prophecies to be fulfilled its about a trillion trillion trillion trillion etc etc.

And it is thought that he may have fulfilled up to 150....
A Mathematician, woop dee doo. Considering the Bible is one book written supposedly by different people, then the prophecies themselves could have been made up. That also supports the fact that many of these things could not have normally happened, which relates again to the exaggerated stories about Odysseus and his travels in the Odyssey. Go talk about false evidence elsewhere.

Quote:
I beleive, from what I have heard and talked to people about, that if you start practicing witchcraft and the like and do it properly you may actually see results. I have no desire to do so, based on other ramifications. (The person who I spoke to is still morning the loss of her friend who died after she lost control over her mind) [[The friend stabbed herself with a knife and was found in the middle of her layout of certain materials she used for her studies]]
Do you know that if you believe in something so strongly that you can trick your mind into thinking its real? It's a proven fact, and it's also been usen to explain Alien Abductions, among other things. Miracles, or figments of the imagination? It's more like delusion to me. You trick yourself into thinking something happened when you didn't, and you have no doubt that it didn't happen. People can pass lie detector tests these ways too. They focus hard on making themselves believe whatever they want, and when a question pops up that would normally make their brain patterns fumble, instead they go on normal as if it never happened.
#45  
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(15-Jan-2003 at 21:40)


It's called, "pla-ce-BO!"

If it works for them, they will use it.
If it doesn't work for them, they may still use it.
#46  
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Posts: 1400/4208
(15-Jan-2003 at 21:51)


Tricking yourself into believing something and placeboes are two different things. Tricking yourself implies you held the truth in your mind at one time, then forced yourself to believe otherwise, with a placebo, you never doubt it's truth.

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#47  
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(Posted as Psirus)
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(15-Jan-2003 at 21:57)


grr.. Erm noo..

I am not scared of the Bible, its you as in religious people as a whole that are scared, scared of finding out they have wasted their lives on nothing.
#48  
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(Posted as PhoenixBD)
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(15-Jan-2003 at 22:03)


Do you know that guy on TV who claimed he was a messenger of God? He claimed that his touch would heal you. Well people believed it so much that they would actually fall back from when he touched them. No Dateline or something like that did a story on him. They found that people he "cured" sometimes died weeks after from his "healing". Or that their sickness never went away. Then he said sometimes God takes back the healing if they did something wrong. People STILL believe in him. Even though he takes all the money that gets donated to him.

Now this is a direct example of tricking your mind into believeing something. And yet ANOTHER example of how people manipulate religion to get what they want.

Life is a test and I get bad marks.
#49  
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(15-Jan-2003 at 22:03)
i went to church, youth group, sunday school, etc, for 2 years and learned only one thing, and that is that religion is crap.

religious people just like to believe that they have something ahead of them after death, that someone (god) is there for them.
#50  
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(15-Jan-2003 at 22:47)


I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again.
I am NOT religious.
I DO believe in God.
The Bible quotes Jesus Christ as having said, "Seek me not in religion, but in me."

Christ tells His disciples to admonish the churches, in other words to gently reprimand and correct them of their innacuracies concerning "true" christianity and who Jesus Christ in accurate fact is and what He said and did.

"True" christianity is not religious. It is living as Christ would have you live, not as a church or denomination or priest or preacher would have you live.

Jesus Christ is quoted in The Bible as having said, "And the truth shall set you free." The true and excellent knowledge of Christ sets men free. It does not bind them to religion or churches or priests or preachers or an interpretation or any other thing that would you limit or deny personal growth and understanding in Christ.

If it works for them, they will use it.
If it doesn't work for them, they may still use it.
#51  
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(15-Jan-2003 at 23:41)


Quote:
(Originally posted by TAB69)
Scientists and explorers on The Discovery Channel and other stations prove it is real all the time. They proved the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah,
OK, and some Hinu texts talk of Babylon, so?
Quote:
they proved all ten curses on Egypt,
No, they haven't. I watched that special. They proved that Isrealites had some presence in Egypt, but that's about it.
Quote:
many of the original scrolls have been found and accurately dated to the period,
There are no orignal scrolls of any biblical book in existance that can be 100% proved.
Quote:
they even think they have found Noah's Ark.
How many times have they "found Noah's Arc"? I think there were 10 specials about how they found it in 10 different places. IF you believe Noah's Arc happened, then why do you believe in dating methods which disprove that and 7-day creation?
Quote:
Plus the history of the people in that area is the same, and the geography matches, they even found the exact location of the Garden of Eden.
Lol, where? I would really like to see that.

Sorry if I seem a little edgy, I'm really stressed from studying for next week's finals.

In brightest day, in blackest night, No evil shall escape my sight.
Let those who worship evil's might, Beware my power, Green Lantern's Light
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#52  
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(16-Jan-2003 at 00:01)


Yes, they showed how all ten curses in Egypt could easily have naturally happened. Each one, step by step was explained. I sure the documentary you saw must be different, because the one I saw made no mistake about the 10 curses and their explanations.

The location of the garden of Eden is in present day Iran. There is currently a city on the site. It is a very well done documentary. I hope you get a chance to see it.

Noah's Ark: I have only heard of the one discovery high in the mountains in the Middle East somewhereabouts. It is mostly covered over by a huge glacier. How could anyone hoax that? It is also very high up and remote, and I think that it is very near Mt. Everest, but I'm not sure how near.

Those Bible stories do sound unbelievable, but what exactly does belief mean anyways? Something held as truth? Maybe it is to be understood from a perspective that we modern humans just aren't capable of experiencing except through faith.

Then, of course, I'm sure you have heard before that since God is eternal, a day for God can mean a million or even a billion years. It is irrelevant about exactly how long it took. What is relevant is that it did take some amount of time, and when that time period ended, that activity that took place rested, or ceased to be that activity. Then something else happened, etc. It is to much to ask of your fellow man to say that you don't believe in this or that just because its explanation isn't handed to you on an intellectual silver platter.
Just try to accept what must be somehow rudimentarily understood in order that the bigger picture be seen. Then maybe things will start to make more sense.

You know it is easy to say, "Ha, I don't believe that because you can't prove it to me."
But, actually, if there was proof then it wouldn't be eligible to be believed in. It is this subtlety about these things that people tend to overlook.

Anyhow, there is no such thing as 100% proof in science.

If it works for them, they will use it.
If it doesn't work for them, they may still use it.
#53  
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Posts: 630/788
(16-Jan-2003 at 00:09)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Silmilarion)

I don't really know what I believe. I considered myself a Christian for about 8 years and I went to church pretty much every sunday. But now I think about everything and it doesn't make sense to me. Also I belive if there was no relgion then there would be a lot less wars happening in the world or already happened. If there was no relgion there quite possibly would have been genocide in WW2 because there would be no Jewish people. If there was no relgion there would't have been a crusades in the olden times and there would't be as much turmoil in the middle east these days because they fight over the "holy land" also if I'm not mistaken thats the same thing the crusades were for.
Right so we're blaming religion for all the wars now arent we? Wars created by men using something else as an excuse and we decide to blame excuses not men. How responsible of you. Even w/out religion there will b many other excuses that men will create for war in our lust for power and glory so dont try to cover up the flaws we have by blaming religion. Shame on you 8yrs of going to church all wasted down the drain. Whats the point of being there physically when you even blame dumb stuff like this on religion? You forget to add that with no religion lots of ppl would have been doing many many more bad stuff but you choose to only see that religion caused wars when its not even really the reason behind it.
#54  
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(16-Jan-2003 at 00:11)


Quote:
(Originally posted by TAB69)
Yes, they showed how all ten curses in Egypt could easily have naturally happened. Each one, step by step was explained. I sure the documentary you saw must be different, because the one I saw made no mistake about the 10 curses and their explanations.
No, all it gave were remnants of the culture of the Isrealites. It may just be how you interpret it.
[QUOTRE]
The location of the garden of Eden is in present day Iran. There is currently a city on the site. It is a very well done documentary. I hope you get a chance to see it.
[/quote]
Question- how do they know it is the garden of Eden and where's the flamming sword and treeof knowledge?
Quote:
Noah's Ark: I have only heard of the one discovery high in the mountains in the Middle East somewhereabouts. It is mostly covered over by a huge glacier. How could anyone hoax that? It is also very high up and remote, and I think that it is very near Mt. Everest, but I'm not sure how near.
How about it was another arc or that a ship a few hundered to a thousand year ago may have got caught in a glacier? It's been done before where ships have gotten frozen in glaciers then have been moved through glacier erosion.
Quote:
Those Bible stories do sound unbelievable, but what exactly does belief mean anyways? Something held as truth? Maybe it is to be understood from a perspective that we modern humans just aren't capable of experiencing except through faith.
No offence, but it just seems like blind faith to me.
Quote:
Then, of course, I'm sure you have heard before that since God is eternal, a day for God can mean a million or even a billion years. It is irrelevant about exactly how long it took.
Yet, didn't you say it took 7 literal days?
Quote:
What is relevant is that it did take some amount of time, and when that time period ended, that activity that took place rested, or ceased to be that activity. Then something else happened, etc. It is to much to ask of your fellow man to say that you don't believe in this or that just because its explanation isn't handed to you on an intellectual silver platter.
Just try to accept what must be somehow rudimentarily understood in order that the bigger picture be seen. Then maybe things will start to make more sense.
Well, I'm trying to take things in a literal view. Everything from a 24 hour day before the sun (lol), and the 2 humans who had 2 sons that created the human race...
Quote:
You know it is easy to say, "Ha, I don't believe that because you can't prove it to me."
But, actually, if there was proof then it wouldn't be eligible to be believed in. It is this subtlety about these things that people tend to overlook.
Yet, that proof is generally held as circumsantial, invalid, or proved in circular logic.
Quote:
Anyhow, there is no such thing as 100% proof in science.
Nor is there in anything. There's no 100% proof you or I even exist.

In brightest day, in blackest night, No evil shall escape my sight.
Let those who worship evil's might, Beware my power, Green Lantern's Light
Slave of Justara
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#55  
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Posts: 631/788
(16-Jan-2003 at 00:12)
Quote:
(Originally posted by PhoenixBD)

Do you know that guy on TV who claimed he was a messenger of God? He claimed that his touch would heal you. Well people believed it so much that they would actually fall back from when he touched them. No Dateline or something like that did a story on him. They found that people he "cured" sometimes died weeks after from his "healing". Or that their sickness never went away. Then he said sometimes God takes back the healing if they did something wrong. People STILL believe in him. Even though he takes all the money that gets donated to him.

Now this is a direct example of tricking your mind into believeing something. And yet ANOTHER example of how people manipulate religion to get what they want.
After all said and done your point? There will always be frauds etc so are you saying because of one fraud we denounce our religion? Kinda ironic you're denouncing a religion and a book just on one theory too, because it could be a fraud.
#56  
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(16-Jan-2003 at 00:14)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Kain050)

i went to church, youth group, sunday school, etc, for 2 years and learned only one thing, and that is that religion is crap.

religious people just like to believe that they have something ahead of them after death, that someone (god) is there for them.
Right, just cause you learn nothing you blame religion and not your IQ. brilliant. I learnt quite a lot from sunday school even when I was and still arent religious. I'm terrible at practisiing my religion but I know the theories pretty ok. I learnt to be really nice to friends and stuff as well in sunday school, they dont only teach you stuff about the bible there. They also teach you stuff on how to ensure you enjoy your time and feel as happy as you can wherever you, whatever you do which you probably never learnt since you didnt enjoy your time there. Btw, going to church + sunday school for two years hardly even qualifies the role of a "stereotypical" christian. Nothing to brag about nothing to be proud about
#57  
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Posts: 633/788
(16-Jan-2003 at 00:16)
Re: Erm noo..

Quote:
(Originally posted by Psirus)

I am not scared of the Bible, its you as in religious people as a whole that are scared, scared of finding out they have wasted their lives on nothing.
Now you're sounding exactly like the person whom your smiley face is mad at. Kinda ironic that to insult christians you have to sound like them? He says you're scared of the bible and you go no you're scared you wasted your life on nothing etc etc. Kinda sad...
#58  
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(16-Jan-2003 at 00:29)


AznBlade,

I'm telling you, we must have seen different documentaries. The one I saw introduced each curse in Egypt and explained each one, and had nothing per se to do with Israel. It described and expalined the locusts, the deaths of the eldest sons, etc., all of them one after the other, just as was written in The Bible.

Blind faith is exactly what faith is. The Bible says, "No man can see God and live." Faith is only possible if there is no proof. When are you people going to educate yourselves with regards to the things you are argueing about, especially concerning biblical topics like belief and faith. These are not easy concepts to understand, and it is obvious that you do not understand them, and yet you argue against their existence, or applicable validity to modern life, when you don't even know how to accurately define them. I suggest that if you are serious about theological debate, then get a college education first in as many subjects as you can, and then read The Bible AGAIN! And then as many other spiritual texts as you can until you begin to understand what enlightenment is all about.

The good logician, by the way, is able to argue both sides of the agruement, and which side he or she argues is not relevant to anything but his or her own circumstance.

Noah's Ark: You just said that maybe a ship got frozen in the glacier, but the glacier is atop one of the highest peaks in the world. That means there must have been water up there some time ago.

And I never limited a literal day to 24 hours. Literally, a day for an eternal being can be any time period. But for us humans, literal days are 24 hours or from sunrise to sunset, or whatever else we agree as a society that it means.

If it works for them, they will use it.
If it doesn't work for them, they may still use it.

Last edited by TAB69, 16-Jan-2003 at 00:30.
#59  
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(16-Jan-2003 at 01:01)


Quote:
(Originally posted by TAB69)

AznBlade,

I'm telling you, we must have seen different documentaries. The one I saw introduced each curse in Egypt and explained each one, and had nothing per se to do with Israel. It described and expalined the locusts, the deaths of the eldest sons, etc., all of them one after the other, just as was written in The Bible.
Well, I probably saw a different one then. It went over each plague and compared them to Egyptian historical records. What evidence was given in yours?
Quote:
Blind faith is exactly what faith is. The Bible says, "No man can see God and live." Faith is only possible if there is no proof. When are you people going to educate yourselves with regards to the things you are argueing about, especially concerning biblical topics like belief and faith. These are not easy concepts to understand, and it is obvious that you do not understand them, and yet you argue against their existence, or applicable validity to modern life, when you don't even know how to accurately define them. I suggest that if you are serious about theological debate, then get a college education first in as many subjects as you can, and then read The Bible AGAIN! And then as many other spiritual texts as you can until you begin to understand what enlightenment is all about.
If blind faith is what faith is all about, then why do people strive to prove it?

You say I don't understand faith and belief. How do you define understanding? Having blind faith just because I was raised to read the bible and told to believe in something? Believeing something to be totally literal just because?
Understanding of subjects such as this are never and won't ever be totally clear until we either die.

I know what enlightement is about in many different cultures. It can mean freedome from want, or intellectual knowledge of all that is. It can mean a spiritual awakening or an encournter with divinity. I don't see how this pretains to the discussion. I've read the bible from many stand points. I've read it from the devout Catholic believing every word of the bible and whatever the church said. I've read it from a theological point of view. I've read it from the atheist point of view. I'm now reading it from the literary point of view with my literature class and our teacher who is unforuntately for me a major in theology and philosophy and ordained preist.

Out of all perspectives I've read from, I see no sense in taking the bible literal word for word. For one, there are way too many versions to pick one. For another, it tries to contradict scientific fact with suggestions of a flat earth, etc. Perhaps the biggest reason I don't take the bible literally is Revelations. I haven't seen a single person able to justify Revelations as a literal fact.

Out of my experience in debating creation, evolution, etc... I came out as theistic evolutionist. I believe the bible carries a message and that some parts may be intended to be taken literal, but I just can't accept the bible as holding 100% literal truth. The only truth I find is spiritual truth.
Quote:
The good logician, by the way, is able to argue both sides of the agruement, and which side he or she argues is not relevant to anything but his or her own circumstance.
a) I'm not a logician, nor do I care to be or not to be one
b) I've already argued both sides of the arguement. The reason I switched to taking the bible as allegorical is because I kept getting trapped in taking the bible literally and found so many contradictions and unlogical events. I basically found no way to justify it.
Quote:
Noah's Ark: You just said that maybe a ship got frozen in the glacier, but the glacier is atop one of the highest peaks in the world. That means there must have been water up there some time ago.
I say again, glacier erosion. Sometimes large mounds of ice form into glaciers, and start to move inward. They eventually start to grow and grow, then start to melt. It could've also been some type of early wooden hut, for all that was really found was a mass of bent, but shaped wood.
Quote:
And I never limited a literal day to 24 hours. Literally, a day for an eternal being can be any time period. But for us humans, literal days are 24 hours or from sunrise to sunset, or whatever else we agree as a society that it means.
Well, what I would like to know is... how can day exist before light?

In brightest day, in blackest night, No evil shall escape my sight.
Let those who worship evil's might, Beware my power, Green Lantern's Light
Slave of Justara
Home~The Gaming Universe~Forums
#60  
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