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Posts: 3/2365
(04-Mar-2003 at 01:39)


Quote:
(Originally posted by ImmortalVraak X)

To prove that God exists is the same way.. we cannot prove that God exists until we get into the same plane with God, and that's the place we call heaven, and then it'll be too late.. as the saying goes, "better safe than sorry"
now, that isn´t really what is supposed to be behind your believing in god, is it...? better safe than sorry...
you make it sound as if it is a choice... which it isn´t for me, really... either i can believe or not... if the faith is there in you, you can´t be a non-believer, and the other way around. so it isn´t a choice, right?
so you can´t choose to believe in God, just to be safe, right?
#41  
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Posts: 58/326
(04-Mar-2003 at 01:42)


Quote:
(Originally posted by ImmortalVraak X)

Here's a challenge to you Death Star:

Prove that a) Einstein's theory of relativity is right (Yes, with brand-spanking actual evidence too) and b) Darwin's theory of human savagery is right (with brand-spanking actual PHYSICAL evidence)..

You'll see that there's proof for neither.. and there won't be until we get to a level of existence that will allow us to achieve that.
Einstein's theory of relativity has been proven many times, both mathematically and in practice. Fly across the atlantic with an atomic clock and have another cross by ship. The two clocks are different on the opposite shore. That proves the theory of relativity.

Perhaps this might settle things...the search for a god comes from devine presence. They are not the same. In searching for a devine presense, we must ask ourselves where everything began. THe rebang theory was rejected. The big bang theory is quasi-rejected. Where did everything come from? Assuming there is a beginning, there must have been a devine presence to create everything.

Maybe that presense just stopped caring then. There are people who believe that. THey are called Deists (very popular among philosophers during the Renaissance). OThers say that presence still exists. Who's to say its only one presence? Maybe there are 3. Or 5, or 1000. Does anybody know?

On the life issue, we have created life. Recreating the conditions of ancient earth, creating primordial soup and introducing electricity, we created DNA. Repeated attempts have even created cells. So don't say that a god or devine presence created life.

"Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather"
-The Man Who is a Nation
#42  
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(04-Mar-2003 at 01:46)


oh, one more thing. One of the only (maybe the only) monotheistic religion that actually has it right is quakerism. To all those catholics out there, I would like you to remember one of the ten commandments:

Thou shalt not kill.

4 crusades
2 world wars
many european wars...

in the name of God, sanctioned by the church and the Pope (or both Popes, in one select case).

"Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather"
-The Man Who is a Nation
#43  
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(Posted as EliasStorm)
Posts: 1/8
(04-Mar-2003 at 01:49)
lightbulb

It really doesn't matter to me if anyone can prove the existence of God. All I know is I believe that God does exists.... but if I'm wrong, all I've wasted....is my time. But if I'm right! all those that didn't believe have wasted their souls.
#44  
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(04-Mar-2003 at 02:01)


to keep the discussion going...

alright, here´s one for the religious people:
assuming God has created me and the world around me, and everything that might be influencing my thoughts and feelings, and i still end up NOT believing in God, wouldn´t that basically be God´s fault rather than mine?
he basically created me in a fashion that led to me not believing. the free will argument will not work here, since it is not a conscious decision i am making. i am not deciding whether to belive in God or not. the faith and the believe is there, or it isn´t.
i would love to read y´all´s thoughts on this one...
#45  
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(Posted as Steiger)
Posts: 250/381
(04-Mar-2003 at 02:35)


Quote:
It really doesn't matter to me if anyone can prove the existence of God. All I know is I believe that God does exists.... but if I'm wrong, all I've wasted....is my time. But if I'm right! all those that didn't believe have wasted their souls.
So you believe in God out of fear and selfishness.
#46  
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(Posted as Tassadar V)
Posts: 217/344
(04-Mar-2003 at 07:30)


Here's a little something I thought of...

Faith. What do you think when you hear it? Religion right?
You associate religion almost always with this invisible, un-tangible emotion. Yet it is the basis for all of our beliefs.

Ok now I'm not siding with either of your factions in this, whatever I say, I say to all of you, and I mean no offense.

Take a look at how you life your live. You work, go to school, do all that. Why? Because you have to? Why? So you can have a good life? Why? Uh....

See that's where the path and branches of life end. At that final fork where you have to decide where your faith lies. Either in yourself, or in someone or something else.

Faith is believing in something. You don't need a reason to have faith, you don't need a book, an event, or anything else. All you need, is to believe. That's what all of us have. Deep down inside, you have an unsatiable and undeniable feeling that you are just doing something, just because. Because of faith. Whether that faith be in yourself, in your future, your life, your family, your significant other, or a diety or higher being. To a degree we all have a faith.

Ok now for my point. It doesn't really matter who's side you believe in or who you have faith in. What really matters, is having that faith in life. Without faith, many of the more intelligent and philosophical of us would see the universe as a dark, cold and lonely void of death, and simply lose the will to exist. I know, it happened to me not so long ago. But I decided, that I simply needed to have this unclassifiable, invisible, unexplainible phenomenon called "faith". I have faith in my life, faith in myself, faith in my future, faith in my family, my friends, faith in this race, faith in this world and it's people, even faith in my country and it's denizens. Am I missing something? A God right? Well, I just don't need it. As long as I have faith in all of these things, does it really matter? I don't have any problem with a Christian who has at least one of those previously listed faiths. If they've got to have a God too, then let them. Everyone needs faith of some sort, even if it is a God. To deny our faith, is to deny our existance. Our willingness and desire to live depends on this fundamental that cannot, and never will be fully explained. And with that, I leave you all to your lives.

I Eat Orcs For Breakfast... - Rath Ironshield
Why do controversial exostential gophers insist on proliferating the unncanny source of deliberate mythology!?!?
Libertarian-leftist and fucking proud of it!
Freedom is the right to shout "theatre" in a crowded fire...

Last edited by Adrius, 04-Mar-2003 at 07:31.
#47  
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(Posted as byrnej)
Posts: 61/137
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(04-Mar-2003 at 07:44)


God exists?

If you want proof that god doesnt exist...

Does any one know what a "UngUslPathyofd" is?

Well i believe in UngUslPathyofd's but you may think im stupid because you've never ever seen an "UngUslPathyofd"

But im telling you they exist! Ive never seen one but im certain they exist... No one has seen one but im sure if i created many books about them and how powerful and spiritual they are then people would start believing in them!

That is like God, No one in reliable history has seen him!

The only evidence that he exists is written in books, just like the books written about "UngUslPathyofd's"

_________________________________
Nex Imperio - Nex Imperio - Nex Imperio
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
#48  
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(04-Mar-2003 at 08:24)
There was once a man, named Sam, came back to his homeland. He ask his parents to search a religious teacher who can answer his question. Soon, his parents found 1 teacher.

S= Sam
T= Teacher

S: Who are you and can you answer my question?
T: I am God's creation adn with his permission I will answer your question.
S: Are you sure? wherelse other Professors and Genious cannot answer it.
T: I will try.

S: If there is God, prove it to me.

The teacher gave Sam a tight slap on the face.

S: Are you mad at me for asking that question?
T: No, that slap is my answer.
S: I don't understand.
T: How does it feel when i slapped you?
S: Of course it hurts.
T: So, you believe that there is pain.
S: Yes.
T: Prove to me that there is pain.
S: I don't think i can.
T: All of us feel his presence but we cannot see that He exist.

Although we cannot see that He exist, we can feel his presence.
#49  
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
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(04-Mar-2003 at 08:30)


that's %101 correct, lol

we can only feel his prescence if we let him in, though. otherwise he would still be knocking on the door

s o u l f i r e
#50  
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(Posted as byrnej)
Posts: 62/137
Donated $0.80
(04-Mar-2003 at 09:04)


u can feel his presence?

I can feel the presence of tension, or the feeling of remorse, but i cant see it.

Just like God, it is a concept, but on Gods behalf its an exuse to demonstrate how your life should be run... invented by people who looked at the world and decided things need to change, whilst i do not have faith in the existence of god, i do have faith in many of the Christian Beliefs...

_________________________________
Nex Imperio - Nex Imperio - Nex Imperio
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
#51  
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
Posts: 1187/3305
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(04-Mar-2003 at 09:27)


maybe you are right, but it's too plausible for me that God exists. God has done some miraculous things that ive seen. some people have bursted out crying so suddenly, and it's because God has shown himself to them, entered their hearts, and filled them with joy. does something imaginative that people create do that? i dont think so. well people react to this God in different ways. some people shriek. some people even faint. well ive never done any one those, i guess im not as animated, lol. i think you should read some testimonies people have. the most amazing things can happen, and i wouldnt think that it's done by their imagination. for myself, yes i think i know God. He gives me answers, and he calms my frustration. That is only because i seek for him, though.

s o u l f i r e
#52  
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(Posted as Tassadar V)
Posts: 221/344
(04-Mar-2003 at 19:09)


Seeking for your faith... Your faith to go on, to live... That's all it is.

I Eat Orcs For Breakfast... - Rath Ironshield
Why do controversial exostential gophers insist on proliferating the unncanny source of deliberate mythology!?!?
Libertarian-leftist and fucking proud of it!
Freedom is the right to shout "theatre" in a crowded fire...
#53  
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Posts: 6/21
(04-Mar-2003 at 19:11)


theory of relativity

Quote:
Einstein's theory of relativity has been proven many times, both mathematically and in practice. Fly across the atlantic with an atomic clock and have another cross by ship. The two clocks are different on the opposite shore. That proves the theory of relativity.
from dracop.

if the theory of relativity has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, it would be called the LAW of relativity and not a THEORY, speaking in scientific terms. Since it has not, nor ever will be tested on all appropriate grounds, (ie something or someone moving at the speed of light) then the theory of relativity will always remain a theory.
#54  
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(04-Mar-2003 at 23:50)


Quote:
(Originally posted by ImmortalVraak X)
You can do both too.. I believe in God and depend on my loved ones as well.. It's not hard.. But not to believe in God is blasphemy and heresy.. and .. well, you all know the end result for that..
Hey! Are you saying that all the Buddists, Taoists, Muslims, Jews, Pagans. etc are all going to the Christian ideal of Hell!? I thought this was the Age of Religious Tolerence. Guess not.
#55  
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(Posted as Capn Owen)
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(05-Mar-2003 at 00:00)


Why do Christians aways point out and the theory of evolution and theory of relativity.

They say we should not believe in them becuase there is so little proof.

But isn' there less proof than the existence of God?

So if some Christians dont believe in them when there is more proof of them than in God why do they still believe in God?
#56  
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(05-Mar-2003 at 00:43)


Why?

1. Why believe in God?

Have you ever come across Pascal's Wager?

Pascal argued that it is much more reasonable to believe in God than not to. Consider this.

Bet that God exists and God does exist - You get infinite lives(you go to heaven)
Bet that God exists and God doesn't exist - You lose 1 life.(you die living a Christian life rather than some other chosen life you could have led)
Bet that God doesn't exist and God does exist - You lose inifite lives(you go to hell)
Bet that God doesn't exist and God doesn't exist - You gain 1 life(you live any life you choose)

Mind you, not living a Christian life doesn't mean you can't live a similar and prosperous life. It just meanst that living a Christian life you add in the "believing in God part. Pascal argues that it is far more profitable to Bet that God exists because you gain far more than if you don't.

Other reasons why people believe is the same reason why children believe in Santa Claus. Do good things, be good people, Santa gives you good things.

2. If there is a God, then why does he allow bad things to happen in this world? Two arguments.

a) One turtle says: Sometimes I'd like to ask why He allows poverty, famine, and injustice when he could do something about it.
The other turtle responds: I'm afraid God might ask me the same question.

Before you go on and tell me why God should do this and that, tell me first why do YOU go do something about this? Wars and poverties and injustices are products of humans. I do understand through this process why God won't help us. Why can't we fix our own problems first? Maybe God is just giving us a chance to fix it before he does something.

b)The other argument is, how can a mere finite human like you and me understand an infinite being like God? Why can't he allow a certain amount of evil in this world so that a greater good can be achieved?

Consider this story of a bear and a hunter.

One day, a hunter was wandering the woods to see what his traps had caught for him. He then wandered to his first trap expecting a deer. To his dismay, a bear was caught in it. The bear was crying and writhing in pain; moved with pity, the hunter decided to help the bear. But in order to do so, he would have to tranquilize the bear by shooting it with tranq darts because the bear will try to hurt the hunter thinking he's an enemy. Of course, this would cause the bear a lot of pain. And in order to remove the spring loaded trap from the bear's leg, the hunter would have to press the bear's leg deeper in the trap so that he can open the trap. This would cause even more pain-- a pain which is necessary to avoid an even greater pain if the trap was not removed.

Like the bear, we do not understand the hunter(metaphorically God) because we are not of the same species. We do not speak the same language and do not think the way He does. And because we do not think the way he does, how do we know he's not helping us right now? To allow a certain amount of pain and suffering in our lives, he perhaps is doing it so that a greater good may arise from that suffering.
#57  
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(05-Mar-2003 at 00:51)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Endgamer)

Hey! Are you saying that all the Buddists, Taoists, Muslims, Jews, Pagans. etc are all going to the Christian ideal of Hell!? I thought this was the Age of Religious Tolerence. Guess not.
Hey, how do we know? Only God decides. It doesn't matter what us humans think will happen to these folks. By the way, Jews believe in the same God. Muslims believe in the same God, but call Him differently. Taoists and Pagans, now there are those who will go to the Christian ideal of Hell.

Just because we live in the Age of Religious Tolerance doesn't mean that the Scripture will suddenly change to fit non-believers' way of life. The facts are: if you don't believe in God, there is the probable matter that you WILL go to hell.
#58  
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(05-Mar-2003 at 00:55)


Re: Why?

Quote:
(Originally posted by TikiPost)


Before you go on and tell me why God should do this and that, tell me first why do YOU go do something about this? Wars and poverties and injustices are products of humans. I do understand through this process why God won't help us. Why can't we fix our own problems first? Maybe God is just giving us a chance to fix it before he does something.
well, god is, by most definitions, all-powerful and all-benevolent. thus, he is in a much better position to fix these problems, than we humans (not so powerful and most definitely NOT all-benevolent).

you also state that the evil and grief in this world is produced by humans. but it is God that created this world and humans, too. so he also created the evil in this world and the injustices we create. kind of, "he is omniscient, he should have known better..."
from a logic point of view i find it hard to exonerate God from the responsibility for the bad things in this world.
and that would contradict the axiom that God is almighty and all-loving.
to plant into humans the urge and the possibility to do evil (and to not believe into him) and then turn around and punish them for that appears quite cruel to me.
#59  
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Posts: 7/2365
(05-Mar-2003 at 01:04)


Re: Why?

Quote:
(Originally posted by TikiPost)

Bet that God exists and God does exist - You get infinite lives(you go to heaven)
Bet that God exists and God doesn't exist - You lose 1 life.(you die living a Christian life rather than some other chosen life you could have led)
Bet that God doesn't exist and God does exist - You lose inifite lives(you go to hell)
Bet that God doesn't exist and God doesn't exist - You gain 1 life(you live any life you choose)

Mind you, not living a Christian life doesn't mean you can't live a similar and prosperous life. It just meanst that living a Christian life you add in the "believing in God part. Pascal argues that it is far more profitable to Bet that God exists because you gain far more than if you don't.
well, if you believe in God because it seems like a good deal - that is certainly not what i would call true faith.

believing or not believing doesn´t come as a choice to me.
i don´t know if it is different for most other people.

by creating me with a mind that is working the way it is, drawn to logic and always ready to doubt, God made it basically impossible for me to believe in him. (assuming he is responsible for creating my obnoxious self)
so wouldn´t it be unfair for him to basically fashion me in a way that i cannot believe in him, and then punish me for it? (i know i am kinda repeating my point, but it comes from different angles, hence the double-post)
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