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Posts: 2081/8194
(05-Apr-2004 at 14:12)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Voice of Reason)
That is an unproven theory itself. No one has managed to produce anything more than a few amino acids in a laboratory no matter how much they agitate their primordial soup; not a scrap of life. Yet you believe it........
The difference is that science progresses. Less than a century we didn't know what DNA was, now we've sequenced it for several species. We may not have all the pieces, but gradually we can explain more and more of how life works and evolves. You complain that we can't explain the first steps on how life appeared, not too long ago you'd have been complaining that we couldn't understand how organic substances could appear from inorganic matter, and in the future when someone has been able to create life in the laboratory you'll be complaining that we can't prove that's exactly how it happened on Earth.
#21  
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(Posted as Black Fighter)
Posts: 2629/4986
(05-Apr-2004 at 14:29)


Quote:
That is an unproven theory itself. No one has managed to produce anything more than a few amino acids in a laboratory no matter how much they agitate their primordial soup; not a scrap of life. Yet you believe it........
Uhm...you make it sound like we're not even near life, o wait...that was your intention

Most if not all amino acids have been produced and many have been observed forming in nature, next to that scientists have already made viruses just by throwing chemicals together.

Life is just chemicals, and we will be able to make it ourselves.

Quote:
Indeed they are. This is the 'twister in a scrap yard' analogy. The amino acids produced in laboratory are described as 'the building blocks of life', and the simplest of life is far more complex than say, a Boeing 747. Yet we are expected to believe that if you collected all the parts of a 747 in a scrapyard, and got enough tornadoes going to whirl them all around for long enough, they would just fall into place to make our aircraft. It sounds very far fetched deosn't it?
Actually, the chances are quite big.

All over the world amino acids were bumping into eachother simultaneously and the right conditions for them sticking to eachother and starting to replicate were all over the place.
#22  
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Posts: 39/135
(05-Apr-2004 at 21:14)


Re: Does "God" exist?

Quote:
(Originally posted by Iron Lung)
dont mention "having faith" because I can have "faith" in leprechauns that grant wishes, yet that doesn't make them real.
lol. Leprachauns

Anyway. I don't have a way to prove whether God exists or not, however if such a being does it exist I would have to say that it is not the Christian conception of the miracle working God. It would be God the scientist who set the laws of the universe and let it evolve on its own.

As for those people who are so skeptical of boeing 747s being put together by tornados, they obviously don't realize that evolution is simply probability. Given enough time and a large number of interactions you will find a combination or traits etc. that thrives in the environment. As you build on those improvements you begin to have the organisms that we see. Going back to your analogy of 747s, a more accurate picture would be millions of hangars of 747 parts being spun around by tornados rather than just one. (for simplicity let's just say that the pieces automatically stick together, since tornados probably aren't that good at riveting )
#23  
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Posts: 44/147
(05-Apr-2004 at 22:02)
I've seen several logical answers proving god doesn't exist. Here's one that proves he exists(think i posted it before):

Imagine a superior being. Imagine it has all the attributes of a supreme being. But if it has all the attributes of a supreme being it also has to most important attribute: existance. Therefore, god exists.

Instead of looking for proof agaist the existance or non-existance of god, u should be looking within yourself. That's how u'll find ur answer.
#24  
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Posts: 32/109
(05-Apr-2004 at 22:08)
Quote:
Oh, he can move it. God can make an object so powerful that he can't move it. AND he can move it. He's all powerful, duh
then you contradict yourself, ergo, god cannot be all powerful



Quote:
That is an unproven theory itself. No one has managed to produce anything more than a few amino acids in a laboratory no matter how much they agitate their primordial soup; not a scrap of life. Yet you believe it........

they are currently taking e. coli bacteria and zapping specific dna strands to see which ones are specific to life. We are within a decade of knowing how life began


Quote:
But stil only a theory, and again you believe it.....

theories > hypotheses
because evidence > casual observation
ergo, big bang > god


Quote:
Imagine a superior being. Imagine it has all the attributes of a supreme being. But if it has all the attributes of a supreme being it also has to most important attribute: existance. Therefore, god exists.

sweet, my supreme leprechauns exist!

Can god create an object he cannot move?
by the laws of logic, NO
ergo, he is not all powerful
because he is not all powerful, he does not posess all qualities of a supreme being
ergo, the most supreme of qualities, existence, does not apply to God
#25  
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Posts: 45/147
(05-Apr-2004 at 22:10)
And to those of u who think everything around us is a result of "playing dice", remember what history taught us: every single theory we've created with insufficient data was, sooner or later, regarded as ridiculous.
#26  
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(05-Apr-2004 at 22:15)
Quote:
Can god create an object he cannot move?
by the laws of logic, NO
ergo, he is not all powerful
because he is not all powerful, he does not posess all qualities of a supreme being
ergo, the most supreme of qualities, existence, does not apply to God
Yes. That's what i'm saying - logic can be easily manipulated so don't count on it to prove the existance or non-existance of god.
#27  
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Posts: 34/109
(05-Apr-2004 at 22:19)
Quote:
Yes. That's what i'm saying - logic can be easily manipulated so don't count on it to prove the existance or non-existance of god.
no. Logic is logic. Logic can be mis interpreted, but that is the fault of the interpreter.
#28  
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Posts: 47/147
(05-Apr-2004 at 22:41)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Iron Lung)

no. Logic is logic. Logic can be mis interpreted, but that is the fault of the interpreter.
Logic is indeed logic but it has paradoxes. For instance:
A competitive race between the super-speedy Achilles and a tortoise: Achilles would not be able to catch the tortoise up -- so long as the tortoise was given a start. For Achilles has first to get to the tortoise's original position, but by then the tortoise will be, however fractionally, further on. Now Achilles must always reach the tortoise's previous position before catching him up. Hence he never catches it up. Sofism (like the one above)manipulates logic to reach an absurd conclusion.
#29  
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Posts: 55/104
(05-Apr-2004 at 22:51)


It is literally impossible to disprove any negative statement, such as "This did not happen." You can only prove or disprove a positive statement, such as "This exists."
God created logic. Yes, He can create an object that He cannot move, but He could then make the object able to be moved and move it.
I think Downwithgravity has the best hypothesis as to how God was "created."
You are [most] all f00ls, I say! Just because one believes in God or is Christian, does not automatically make them a Creationist. I'm a Christian, and I typically think that Creationism has crazy ideas. I believe that God used evolution to create life. The important part about Genesis is the "why," not the "how."
Anyways, I still don't understand/know exactly how any life comes from non-living things... Perhaps one could explain that to me? Also, there are theories for everything else in science, except for how all this matter was originally created (pre-Big Bang). I'm not worried that many of the theories in science for other things might be disproven in a few years, but just the fact that there is no non-religious explination or theory as to how this matter and/or energy was originally created is what proves that there must be some sort of supreme being (who always existed, created Time, etc).
#30  
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Posts: 36/109
(05-Apr-2004 at 23:01)
Quote:
A competitive race between the super-speedy Achilles and a tortoise: Achilles would not be able to catch the tortoise up -- so long as the tortoise was given a start. For Achilles has first to get to the tortoise's original position, but by then the tortoise will be, however fractionally, further on. Now Achilles must always reach the tortoise's previous position before catching him up. Hence he never catches it up. Sofism (like the one above)manipulates logic to reach an absurd conclusion.

allow me to present a hypothesis created by the lung himself.

Time exists as MANY frames per second. Perhaps billions. Each frame is a single static event. Every time achilles gets closer to the tortoise, the amount of frames is divided by 2. This can happen indefinitely, until you are at one frame. Since one cannot divide a single frame of time by 2, it then skips to the next frame, ergo achilles passes the tortoise. If time was truly fluid, Achilles would not ever pass the tortoise, but the frame idea explains how achilles would pass the turtle, and how we can only perceive time to travel in one direction. (which it does not
#31  
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Posts: 2/4
(05-Apr-2004 at 23:08)
first thing first:

can God create something He can't move?

well, He created you and you haven't been moved by Him, right?

second:

if He's so powerful, why can't He move that "thing" He just created?

because of free will, man. It's all up to you. :P
#32  
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Posts: 40/109
(05-Apr-2004 at 23:21)
Quote:
well, He created you and you haven't been moved by Him, right?
Logical flaw: Equivocation. Changing the meaning of a word to fit your argument.

example: Nothing is better than eternal life. A peanut butter sandwich is better than nothing. Ergo, a peanut butter sandwich is better than eternal life.


example: In the animal kingdom, only man is rational. Woman is not man, ergo woman is not rational.
#33  
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Posts: 529/1865
(05-Apr-2004 at 23:21)


Heheh, Pladville has got a point.

However, I believe there is no God. There will never be a God in my eyes until there is hardcore proof of it. The theory of creation in Genesis has since been refuted, so there's no point in bring that argument up; Life, the Universe, and Everything were created by an atomic force composed of chemicals and... Well, you all know the theory of the Big Bang. (And I'm aware that I stole the Life, the Universe, and Everything line, but it's not for profit, so it doesn't count.)
Evolution. Now, there's a funny issue. We evolved from monkey. Monkey evolved from still other life forms. Mammals evolved from reptiles, et cetera. No, I'm not saying the thought of it is funny, but the arguments against evolution are. Other than the Bible, nobody has any real proof existence is between 6000 and 10000 years old. Whereas we have fossils predating "creation" that have gone through millions of years of erosion and fossilization.... Et cetera.
Christ? Yeah, I believe he existed. Somebody must've known the guy in order to write a whole Bible on him, and he DOES fit neatly into history. Well, not in the eyes of some, but I've heard about Roman crucification documents with his name on them (note: never heard of them). However, even if he does exist, I refuse to accept him as the Messiah and Savior of mankind and its sins.

Okay, too much rambling going on in this post. So. In summary, I do not believe there is a God. I never will until I see proof that goes beyond logic (and I mean existent proof), and if that will only happen after I die and God is not happy with my lack of faith in him, well, I'll fry in hell for all eternity. No biggie.

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#34  
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(05-Apr-2004 at 23:25)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Frederick)

Lets turn it the other way around, proof me that God doesn't exist. Its always like, "Hey, proof me God exists!", why not put it the other way around and show us what you got of proof that God doesn't exist. Probably none either. Existance of God is something you can not proof.

For the people who say he doesn't i have some questions. Where did live start? How was the universe born? Where is the beginning of everything?
The same thing amounts for god, How was god born.. etc. etc.

besides, the point is, you don't prove that something doesn't exist, since it's impossible, prove for me the nonexistance of smurfs for instance.

You prove things exists, not the other way around, since it's impossible to find proof of something NOT existing.

Then why the hell do you allow {img} code in the signature options. [Can't help it until vb3.]
#35  
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Posts: 312/358
(05-Apr-2004 at 23:30)


He is all-powerful so logic doesnt apply to Him. we cant comprehend how powerful He is, so this question is irrelavant.

im sarcastic and lazy, and proud of it
join S.P.A.M. today!Kyrina's other slave
if somethings hard to do, then its not worth doing-Homer
#36  
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Posts: 43/109
(05-Apr-2004 at 23:34)
Quote:
Christ? Yeah, I believe he existed. Somebody must've known the guy in order to write a whole Bible on him
He did exist, but he was nothing more than an influential philosopher. You can read his book, the book of thomas, except major religions edited that book out of the bible (oops!) because they fear what Christ had to say about practices that went against the deathgrip of the church.


yeah, I know, all you hardcore guys are going to say I'm full of bullshit. but you know what? I'm so very, very painfully used to it.

Quote:
He is all-powerful so logic doesnt apply to Him. we cant comprehend how powerful He is, so this question is irrelavant.
ehhh.... the first post ever to make me laugh out loud.
#37  
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Posts: 3/4
(05-Apr-2004 at 23:40)
tongue

Quote:
(Originally posted by Iron Lung)

Logical flaw: Equivocation. Changing the meaning of a word to fit your argument.

example: Nothing is better than eternal life. A peanut butter sandwich is better than nothing. Ergo, a peanut butter sandwich is better than eternal life.


example: In the animal kingdom, only man is rational. Woman is not man, ergo woman is not rational.
ha ha.. and I keep on wondering why almost all atheists are philo majors..

then let me put it in other words.

the first question would obviously be answered by yes, since He is supposed to be someOne who can create anything right?

the next question, would also have to be answered by yes to disprove your point that God does not exist right?

the answers would be logically impossible but the terms all-powerful and all-knowing seems to confuse you. Do you accept that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, if ever He exists?

if yes, then you have to accept that He knows just how to do that. and accept that we, me and you included, does not have the infinite knowledge to defy an illogical argument, but He can.

if not, then what was your question again? :P
#38  
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Posts: 46/109
(05-Apr-2004 at 23:59)
If he exists, how do we know he's not some geeky kid who accidentally let a bread crumb mold over therefore creating the universe? Maybe god has a social life? maybe god is a practicing homosexual with his own agenda, maybe god doesn't even know we exist, until other influential scientists of his time isolate us as some sort of infection. Who knows! Ultimately though, I gotta say that if god does exist, he sure isn't what people describe him/her to be.


hmmm what IF god was gay? I wonder how the world would react!
#39  
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Posts: 48/147
(06-Apr-2004 at 00:08)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Iron Lung)

allow me to present a hypothesis created by the lung himself.

Time exists as MANY frames per second. Perhaps billions. Each frame is a single static event. Every time achilles gets closer to the tortoise, the amount of frames is divided by 2. This can happen indefinitely, until you are at one frame. Since one cannot divide a single frame of time by 2, it then skips to the next frame, ergo achilles passes the tortoise. If time was truly fluid, Achilles would not ever pass the tortoise, but the frame idea explains how achilles would pass the turtle, and how we can only perceive time to travel in one direction. (which it does not
1st off, u didn't create this theory. Smth similar was created by Aristotle thousands of years before u did.And it's just a theory - every period of time(no matter how small) we've experimented on can be divided into 2 parts.
Maybe what ur saying is true but untill we find that undevideble frame, it's false.

2nd, I didn't ask for an explanation of the "Achilles and tortoise" sofism. I simply showed how logic can be manipulated. Some things cannot be explained by strictly using the laws of logic.One of those things is God.
#40  
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