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(11-Aug-2004 at 02:18)


sunglasses The logic of God

First of all, God can't be totally comprehended by us.

But I can explain why it is logical to believe.

Going by the ultimate logic sequence of game theory - to you von Neumann nut's, yes I know it has it's draw backs - we will use the mini-max theory to determine the logic of a belief in God.

Further, a qualification on the definition of hell. We shall take it to mean a place devoid of God. Heaven is a place where God exists. I don't want this turning into a place discussing the state.


Don't believe in God - God exists = Go to hell
Don't believe in God - God doesn't exist = Death

Believe in God - God exists = Go to heaven
Believe in God - God doesn't exist = Death


Ok taking this, we can determine (normally mathematically, but we won't) the logical determination of what to do. Where God doesn't exist, will equal death. It won't matter your beliefs. So in this case, there is a 50% chance of belief being wrong. Pretty good odds either way.

Where God exists, not believing means hell, and following means heaven. Again a 50% chance.

All in all, a 25% chance of you going to heaven or hell. Now, the Death hypothesis is a null value, so it doesn't matter your beliefs. However, the God hypothesis means a choice.

In the God hypothesis, it is logical to believe.

So, this means, following our logic, that a 50% chance of God existing means that heaven and hell exists. In Death, beliefs mean nothing. Following this logic, it is best to believe. It has the best minimum maximum loss.

Confused? Basically, 50% chance (logically) of God existing. This chance is far too high. It is best to believe, because the chances of being wrong are too high.


Ok, so I hear you saying, what about everything else? Go to another thread. Too many times I hear things on beliefs in religion being illogical. Just trying to clear this up. Following logic, it is logical to believe.

You don't have to believe in the church. That's not important. You don't have to believe things christians tell you. You may consider them irrational and illogical, but above is the logic of believing in God.

If we are men of reason, we understand that logic is something that can be used to solve everything. But not human's actions. Do not use logic to critique how people act. Further, people are not representative of God. We can't say, hey, this person is how God wants us to be. We can't say he/she isn't a very good christian, therefore I won't be a christian because I don't want to be like them.

Ok my rant has ended. Can we please keep this on topic about logic of believing in God? PLEASE?

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence
#1  
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(11-Aug-2004 at 04:42)


Problem with everything you worte there is your trynig to put logic into illogical thinking. Let faith rule religion cause science never can.

Thats my opinion and Im sticking to it!
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(Posted as Izumi Koushirou)
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(11-Aug-2004 at 05:30)


Nice attempt at logic, but you have failed in one corresponding way.

Wouldn't a god understand that you are only believing just to be logical? He technically expects faith, yet you are merely believing it so you can gain something either way?

That's called being a bad person, in my opinion.
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(11-Aug-2004 at 06:50)


Gus if the only reason for you to belive in God is so you can go to heaven when you die i dont think God will like that! I think that atheists are quite safe in this matter: 1) if there is no God everybody dies 2) if God exists and he created men in his image then he must be a logical God and so he will understand why an atheist didnt belive in him.
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(11-Aug-2004 at 07:02)


Reminds me of betting

Sounds like what your saying is that betting on God is a safe bet

There is more to faith then logic though

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
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(11-Aug-2004 at 07:09)
Oh my Freakin God!

Buddy, get some freakin orginal material please!! That is right from a first Year Philosophy Course!! I read all that before...Now it has been a few years since I read that particular arguement about the logic of God, and I don't want to to go out into my garage to get my old Text Book...but If I remember correctly...that was the paper written by Pascal about why it is more logical to believe in god.

Next you are going to be posting other papers, like that one written by that priest on the 5 proofs of God, but through those proofs he proves that God might not exist.
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(11-Aug-2004 at 07:15)


This argument has one major flaw:

Don't believe in God - God exists = Go to hell
Don't believe in God - God doesn't exist = Death

Believe in God - God exists = Go to heaven
Believe in God - God doesn't exist = Death

You havn't included the different Gods. For example if Judaism is the true faith then all christians, muslims, hindus, sikhs, confusionists, pagens e.t.c will all go to hell for following false God/s or false prophets. If the true God is in fact Ur the sun god - then all jews, christians, muslims, hindus e.t.c. will go to hell e.t.c. So the odds of you getting to paradise are just a tiny fraction of 25% - whereas the odds of getting to hell are huge.

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
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(11-Aug-2004 at 07:52)


Quote:
if God exists and he created men in his image then he must be a logical God and so he will understand why an atheist didnt belive in him.
That is a pretty good point man. never thought of it that way. Gonna have to use that some time.

OT: THe eprcentages Grashnak brought up raise a good point too. Its almost like a guessing game when it comes to religion. THen again Im Jewish so Im going to heaven either way.

Thats my opinion and Im sticking to it!
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(11-Aug-2004 at 09:14)


You want to play with logic of God? How about another classic dealing with some very basic dogmata.

God is almighty/omnipotent.
God makes something what he cannot destroy.
But if he cannot destroy it than he is not omnipotent.
So he destroys it. I guess he couldn't make something what he can't destroy. Is he omnipotent... lol

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...
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(11-Aug-2004 at 11:11)


Quote:
(Originally posted by bleulung)

Oh my Freakin God!

Buddy, get some freakin orginal material please!! That is right from a first Year Philosophy Course!! I read all that before...Now it has been a few years since I read that particular arguement about the logic of God, and I don't want to to go out into my garage to get my old Text Book...but If I remember correctly...that was the paper written by Pascal about why it is more logical to believe in god.

Next you are going to be posting other papers, like that one written by that priest on the 5 proofs of God, but through those proofs he proves that God might not exist.
WHAT THE FUCK? THIS IS STANDARD GAME THEORY, WHICH COMES FROM ECONOMICS, WHICH I DULY STATED IT WAS. NOT SOME FUCKING PHILOSOPHY TEXT. FUCK YOU BLEULUNG

Ok and to all the others, yes, its a cold way to look at God, but I'm talking about logic here. Atheists always argue that believing is illogical, and I just demonstrated it was highly logical. That's all. Of course there's more to religion. I never said there wasn't.

To Grashnak who said that there are many Gods, you have raised the most valid issue. However, I believe God manifests himself in many different forms. He may represent himself to muslims as Allah, or to other people as other names. I believe them all to be one and the same. But this isn't about my beliefs.

Quote:
You want to play with logic of God? How about another classic dealing with some very basic dogmata.

God is almighty/omnipotent.
God makes something what he cannot destroy.
But if he cannot destroy it than he is not omnipotent.
So he destroys it. I guess he couldn't make something what he can't destroy. Is he omnipotent... lol
can someone explain that to me? Vonboob, forgive my obtusness, but what has that to do with anything?

(forgive that caps please... im making a point)

IM NOT TALKING ABOUT OTHER FACTORS HERE. I CLEARLY STATED I WAS PROVIDING A LOGICAL REASON TO BELIEVE IN GOD. NOTHING MORE. KEEP ON TOPIC. IM NOT RAISING OTHER ISSUES, JUST PROVING THE LOGIC OF BELIEF.

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence
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(11-Aug-2004 at 11:45)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)

WHAT THE FUCK? THIS IS STANDARD GAME THEORY, WHICH COMES FROM ECONOMICS, WHICH I DULY STATED IT WAS. NOT SOME FUCKING PHILOSOPHY TEXT. FUCK YOU BLEULUNG

Ok and to all the others, yes, its a cold way to look at God, but I'm talking about logic here. Atheists always argue that believing is illogical, and I just demonstrated it was highly logical. That's all. Of course there's more to religion. I never said there wasn't.

To Grashnak who said that there are many Gods, you have raised the most valid issue. However, I believe God manifests himself in many different forms. He may represent himself to muslims as Allah, or to other people as other names. I believe them all to be one and the same. But this isn't about my beliefs.



can someone explain that to me? Vonboob, forgive my obtusness, but what has that to do with anything?

(forgive that caps please... im making a point)

IM NOT TALKING ABOUT OTHER FACTORS HERE. I CLEARLY STATED I WAS PROVIDING A LOGICAL REASON TO BELIEVE IN GOD. NOTHING MORE. KEEP ON TOPIC. IM NOT RAISING OTHER ISSUES, JUST PROVING THE LOGIC OF BELIEF.

hmmm... it looks to me you didnt reply to my post .You know, the one that destroyed your argument
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(11-Aug-2004 at 11:53)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Cobra2002)

Gus if the only reason for you to belive in God is so you can go to heaven when you die i dont think God will like that! I think that atheists are quite safe in this matter: 1) if there is no God everybody dies 2) if God exists and he created men in his image then he must be a logical God and so he will understand why an atheist didnt belive in him.
i disregard this because of my original post where i state
Quote:
Ok, so I hear you saying, what about everything else? Go to another thread. Too many times I hear things on beliefs in religion being illogical. Just trying to clear this up. Following logic, it is logical to believe.
im just establishing that it is logical to believe. too many times athesits attack peoples logic for believing. so i established that logically, it is ok to believe. nothing more. i don't base my faith on logic. im jsut stating that we can say that belief is logical and that people aren't illogical for following Christ.

point 1- yes you're correct
point 2- he will udnerstand but he it's not him that decides who goes where. people choose to want to be wuith GOd, or if they don't.

i don't see how it ruins my argument

IM JUST PROVING THAT IT IS LOGICAL FOR US TO BELIEVE. I CANT IMAGINE ANY CHRISTIAN BASING THERE BELIEFS ON MYT ARGUMENT. IM DEMONSTRATING TO THE ATHEISTS THAT BELIEVERS AREN't ILLOGICAL. stop trying to throw everything else in. you may believe them linked. fine. but in this argument we are just discussing that christians can be said to be logical. period

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence
#12  
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(11-Aug-2004 at 11:56)


well... i know what you are trying to do but its even MORE logical not to belive dont you see?
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(11-Aug-2004 at 12:05)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Cobra2002)

well... i know what you are trying to do but its even MORE logical not to belive dont you see?
how is it more logical to not believe? you have nothing to lose by believing and everything to gain. this is off-topic though... maybe create a thread on the logic of being atheist?

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The true meaning of silence
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(11-Aug-2004 at 12:11)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)
To Grashnak who said that there are many Gods, you have raised the most valid issue. However, I believe God manifests himself in many different forms. He may represent himself to muslims as Allah, or to other people as other names. I believe them all to be one and the same. But this isn't about my beliefs.
You are of course welcome to your beliefs and I will not debate them with you here (BTW - did you know what you describe as your beliefs is the fundimental definition of Hinduism ?).

However, most faiths doctrines state that if you do not believe in their God & follow his rules as laid down in their scriptures you are going to hell. In fact I cannot think of any that are lenient on this subject. Logic says we are most likely to be going to hell...

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
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(11-Aug-2004 at 12:15)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Grashnak)

You are of course welcome to your beliefs and I will not debate them with you here (BTW - did you know what you describe as your beliefs is the fundimental definition of Hinduism ?).

However, most faiths doctrines state that if you do not believe in their God & follow his rules as laid down in their scriptures you are going to hell. In fact I cannot think of any that are lenient on this subject. Logic says we are most likely to be going to hell...
i didnt know that. thanks for sharing. we can't comprehend God in one single entity. i don't think he can blame us for representing him in a billion different religions and sects.

on your 2nd paragraph, theological belief is generally that God will show himself to everyone at somestage in some form. he doesn't call us to follow everyone of his rules, jsut try and live like him and repent and try harder where we fail. he is very lenient. he will forgive us for anything.

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence
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(11-Aug-2004 at 12:28)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)

i didnt know that. thanks for sharing. we can't comprehend God in one single entity. i don't think he can blame us for representing him in a billion different religions and sects.
Wow - you are sounding even more like a Hindu... you should look into the faith as you sound far removed from many chrisitan beliefs. PM me if you want & I will tell you what I know about it.

Quote:
on your 2nd paragraph, theological belief is generally that God will show himself to everyone at somestage in some form. he doesn't call us to follow everyone of his rules, jsut try and live like him and repent and try harder where we fail. he is very lenient. he will forgive us for anything.
That is true of some versions on the chrisitan God. It is not like what most other faiths believe that if you just try to live like him (I am assuming you mean Jesus here instead of God) & repent you will make it to paradise. Most faiths unlike christianity have very specfic rules & traditions that must be adheared to, failure to do so will all end in trouble for you.

Also of course you cannot repent for sins you do not know you are committing. For example lets assume for this example that Judaism states that you cannot eat pork - I am sure as a christian you do. When your day of reckoning comes you will have to account for each unrepentant 'failure' of eating pork. On balance you will probably find that you have commited more sins that you have had dinners.

What it comes down to is the leniency of God - and who is to say to what degree that is. Scripture says not very, most modern priests of all faiths say he is.. so who knows ?

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
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(11-Aug-2004 at 16:06)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)
Quote:
(Originally posted by VonBooB)
You want to play with logic of God? How about another classic dealing with some very basic dogmata.

God is almighty/omnipotent.
God makes something what he cannot destroy.
But if he cannot destroy it than he is not omnipotent.
So he destroys it. I guess he couldn't make something what he can't destroy. Is he omnipotent... lol
can someone explain that to me? Vonboob, forgive my obtusness, but what has that to do with anything?

(forgive that caps please... im making a point)

IM NOT TALKING ABOUT OTHER FACTORS HERE. I CLEARLY STATED I WAS PROVIDING A LOGICAL REASON TO BELIEVE IN GOD. NOTHING MORE. KEEP ON TOPIC. IM NOT RAISING OTHER ISSUES, JUST PROVING THE LOGIC OF BELIEF.
You are not providing anything logical about reasons to believe: your "logic" is not about faith, is about wishy-washiness. It reminds me of early christians who build an altar to their new god and then lit a candle on side for a devil just in case. Your logic would make people worship (without beliving) the God just in case. Playing the odds as you suggest does not make foundations for any faith, at least I hope so. Otherwise, why don't you take it further and play stats: this way the most populous religion would be most logical choice.

My point was (besides view that your reason to believe is a joke) that logic and faith just don't mix.

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...

Last edited by VonBooB, 11-Aug-2004 at 16:07.
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(11-Aug-2004 at 16:33)


Re: The logic of God

Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)
Don't believe in God - God exists = Go to hell
Don't believe in God - God doesn't exist = Death

Believe in God - God exists = Go to heaven
Believe in God - God doesn't exist = Death
Ah, the gambles theory of God. Its example we had in our philosophy books. I like it because its simple and easy to understant and quite flawless.

My teacher actually tried to breake it but he had little success. Atheist claim usually that is not real philosophical idea or similar and belivers think that believing only to gain something is not good thing... So you got enemies both sides when you use Gambles theory about God.

God is one and only God. Those who have reprisent themselves as god's, well, I think explantion can be found onhere . Yeah, I am nut case when I belive something I cannot see nor feel

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
"Sages learn from history... idiots learn from experience" -Fairy Tail manga
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(11-Aug-2004 at 19:22)


Flawless LM ? What about my argument that in fact you are most likely to go to hell ?

Also thinking about it, the argument also discludes this:

Believe in God - God doesn't exist = Death, wasted significant portion of your life praying, worshiping & restricted your enjoyment of life.

Don't believe in God - God doesn't exist = Death, but lived your life to your full without restricting your actions to what the scriptures tell you to.

On the Erich von Däniken link - do you mean that you believe all other God's that have appeared to man are in fact aliens ??

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
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