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Posts: 4161/8194
(30-Nov-2004 at 12:02)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Aussie Dravid)
You say there is no evidence? There is an eyewitness account recorded in the Bible. Sounds like evidence to me.
Hearsay through lots of generation isn't much in the way of evidence when contradicted by hard facts such as the impossibility of the flood or the fossil record.
Quote:
6. It would make perfect sense that seeing there are numerous creation myths they all descended from the same one. The difference is the one in Genesis was written down, the other ones were passed along by word of mouth. The ones passed along by word of mouth are likely to be corrupted.
As far as I know no one claims the Bible was written down before Moses, which was many generations after Adam. If work of mouth is inaccurate surely the Bible must be inaccurate too. Some Sumerian myths are older than the Jewish one.
Quote:
It is actually evidence that the Creation account is not a myth. For instance a tribe in Papua New Guinea has a creation account with a number of striking similarities to the Genesis account. It has been part of their culture for a long time and was only discovered when 'white man' came with the Bible.
So, among all thousands of creation myths among tribes around someone has found one other that somewhat resembles the Biblical story. Is that supposed to be a surprise? For that matter even isolated tribes may have had more contact with civilization than assumed.

Compare with the Dogon legends about Sirius and its hidden companion. This has by some been seen as extraordinary since the white dwarf in the Sirius system can't be seen without a telescope. A simpler explanation is that the Dogons heard about it from some early Eurpan visitors and quickly incorporated the knowledge in their myths as something they had "always" known.
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(30-Nov-2004 at 12:27)
There is no real contradiction between Evolution and Creation. Not when one uses those words for their simpler meanings. I believe God created Mankind. I took "one day" (just a translation) of God's eternity. But how long, in human days, is one of God's days? The Bible says that Man was made from "clay", that is, a mixture of certain solid minerals and water, that is, from inert materials. Does anyone here knows how that is done? I don't think so, but it wouldn't surprise me that it would take a looooong time (of our time) and that the transformation from such an unlikely form as clay would encompass other forms, not so unlikely, in the between. The fact that God gave us reason may indeed allow us to gradually get a better (although not perfect) understanding about the process, but that won't be the same as mastering it. Because after molding Man, as the Bible says, God "breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul" and that is what is beyond the scope of science.
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(30-Nov-2004 at 17:29)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Turbonyx)

You are confusing scientific achievement with scientific speculation.
...
Not just any scientific achievement: genetics. We have shown very good ability to decode and modify proteines beyond theories. Genome is the missing link what proves evolution. No need to dig for fossils...

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...
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(30-Nov-2004 at 18:33)


gnome is not all mighty either. It contains code of life but still science cannot know what makes us live, what is the spark of life... Is it the soul, the breath of God?

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
"Sages learn from history... idiots learn from experience" -Fairy Tail manga
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(30-Nov-2004 at 19:45)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Menchalior)

gnome is not all mighty either. It contains code of life but still science cannot know what makes us live, what is the spark of life... Is it the soul, the breath of God?
Say what? Breath of gods in minty freshness?

Soul is not a scientific concept. We know why things live and why things die. Does my cat have a soul? Is it similar to yours? Looking at the genetic code it cannot be that far off. So just for argument sake, whatever "soul" means to you, be ready to accept that spark of life is in all carbon based lifeforms and possibly in a few what are not organic...
That's a bender for your religion tho, hehehe.

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...
#45  
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(30-Nov-2004 at 22:57)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel)

Scientific theories (or laws) can *never* be proven. All you can do is conclude that they match a large number of observations and that no other theory has been able to do so. Do you have a reasonable alternative to evolution that matches alll observations as well? (A literal interpretation of the Bible is not a reasonable theory since it is contradicted in so many ways)
Actually, the bible has a great many contributing items. Much of the the world as you see it can be explained, scientifically, by events described in the bible.

For example, the larges event, the flood, provides a very encompassing cause for many things. The continental shift, decreasing age spans, fossile record, etc. The bible describes the world before the flood as having a layer of water in the heavens and a layer of water under the earth. When the account of the flood is told, we see the torential rains falling from the sky and water bursting from the earth. The water rising out of the ground, at the magnitude described, along with the resulting shifts in subteranean structure is more than enough to cause the plates to break apart and shift, very quickly. Many of the resulting land structures can also be explained by this 40 days of flooding. (Just like the Ice Age theories.) Now look at post flooding. The entire planet was described as being covered with water, as high as the highest mountain. Science tells us that if that much water was present on the face of the earth, the preasure alone would be significant enough to easily cause the creation of the fossile records we find today. Thirdly, the magnitude of the "disaster" is of the same scale and effect as the theoretical "meteor impact" that altered our enviroment so drastically millions of years ago and would account for the massive gaps in the fossile records when large numbers of species died out. Finally, the shorter life spans. Christian scientists, not the religion but scientifically trained bible scholors, have investicated the effects of a water layer in the heavens. It is postulated that such a thing would be an almost perfect radiation shield from the sun, blocking a large amount of the aging effects it causes. This probably accounts for the extreme ages recorded for many of the first people in the bible.

So you see, you can look at the things around you today and explain how they came to be by the "theory" of the bible. Just a "reasonably" as you can with evolution. "Human kinds greatest trick is the ability to convince himself of anything."
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(01-Dec-2004 at 00:34)


When you're starting with the freaking magic factor you don't have to bother with science. When you can make that much water appear in 40 days, and then promptly disappear, with the only explanation being God, trying to prove any scientific validity is just a joke.

How did the layer of water get up in the sky? How was it suspended there?

Aging is not caused by solar radiation. All the cells in our body have a division cap (they can only divide so many times before they are incapable of doing so any more). When cells reach this cap they can no longer replace the old ones, and organs start to fail and the immune system weakens. This is why older people are more adversely affected by illnesses, and often die of heart-attacks.

Anywho, the biggest strike against bible-science is that it hasn't accomplished anything. The science you deny has brought about the creation of the device you use to post your opinions here. It is because of this non-bible science that medicine is advanced as it is.

"In the end, all that is left is Change."
"That which does not embrace change will be destroyed by it"
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
"Nothing can be derived from nothing."
""There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes." ~ James Morrow
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(01-Dec-2004 at 05:01)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Angels of Death)

When you're starting with the freaking magic factor you don't have to bother with science. When you can make that much water appear in 40 days, and then promptly disappear, with the only explanation being God, trying to prove any scientific validity is just a joke.

How did the layer of water get up in the sky? How was it suspended there?

Aging is not caused by solar radiation. All the cells in our body have a division cap (they can only divide so many times before they are incapable of doing so any more). When cells reach this cap they can no longer replace the old ones, and organs start to fail and the immune system weakens. This is why older people are more adversely affected by illnesses, and often die of heart-attacks.

Anywho, the biggest strike against bible-science is that it hasn't accomplished anything. The science you deny has brought about the creation of the device you use to post your opinions here. It is because of this non-bible science that medicine is advanced as it is.
When did I ever deny science? All I ever said was that I didn't believe in evolution. What, do you think I'm some sort of cave man that has someone replying for him here?

Do you think that religion is the belief that everything happens by magic? You claim you have indesputible proof that this accident of evolution is true. I say to you, go, spread the news. You will be famous since not one other scientist has been able to with all thier doctorates and PHds and publication upon publication. They can't even agree with each other what exactly happend. Since it is so obvious to you, I feel it is your duty to end the debate today.

And to think, all this time I thought my car ran because I wanted to get somewhere and that mechanical problems were little devils trying to stop me.
#48  
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(01-Dec-2004 at 06:25)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel)
Hearsay through lots of generation isn't much in the way of evidence when contradicted by hard facts such as the impossibility of the flood or the fossil record.
There is evidence of a global flood - look at the Grand Canyon as one example of it. And as far as I am aware (feel free to enlighten me) the fossil record has just as much proof for Evolution as for Creation.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel)
As far as I know no one claims the Bible was written down before Moses, which was many generations after Adam. If work of mouth is inaccurate surely the Bible must be inaccurate too. Some Sumerian myths are older than the Jewish one.
In Genesis, a number times it says something to the effect of 'these were the genalogies...' These represented different peoples (like Adam all the way through). It is thought that these were probably recorded on clay tablets and passed down the line to have an accurate view of what happened.

Did Adam know how to write? Why not. He lived for 900 years and they had language from the start. He wasn't a cave man.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel)
So, among all thousands of creation myths among tribes around someone has found one other that somewhat resembles the Biblical story. Is that supposed to be a surprise? For that matter even isolated tribes may have had more contact with civilization than assumed.
No, my point was that if there are similarities than the chances are that they all originated from the same source.

Prove me wrong and get a million dollars - It can't get much better than that can it?
#49  
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(01-Dec-2004 at 07:22)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Aussie Dravid)
There is evidence of a global flood - look at the Grand Canyon as one example of it.
The Grand Canyon did not develop in some kind of flash flood whatever creationists claim. It eroded slowly over a long period of time. Geologists have observed smaller flash floods and seen what kind of traces they leave and this does not match Grand Canyon.

Can you even explain where the water that must have been needed for the flood came from and how it disappeared? Do you really believe that Noah built a ship capable of holding all species of animals on Earth?
Quote:
And as far as I am aware (feel free to enlighten me) the fossil record has just as much proof for Evolution as for Creation.
The fossil record has no proof whatsoever of Creation.
Quote:
No, my point was that if there are similarities than the chances are that they all originated from the same source.
Possibly, but what would that really prove more than that man brought his myths with him as he spread over the Earth? You can find that many of the stories in the Bible are just modifications to even older Sumerian myths, does that prove we ought to resurrect their religion as being more fundamental?
#50  
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(01-Dec-2004 at 09:43)


Bernel, Grand Canyon, is huge canyon, its like someone has cut thru earth core. What we can see from rocks, are called Sediments. Layers of different kind earth, became rock in years.

We can see same sediments in Grand Canyon, Asutralia, in Afrika and in rest of the world, Same sediment, same height, what means it ahppend same time. And that sediment is born when seafloor is becoming a rock. That is general evidences as most scientist agree from great flood occured severeal years ago.

You can ask this from scholars in geographical instutes around world and they can verify this: A great flood has occured that has has global effect...

That is what modern science can proove. And it goes well with Bibles story of the great flood.

Bernel, you don'th va ethat much gebneral knowledge about things as i thought you have... I am bit shocked when you never knew this...

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
"Sages learn from history... idiots learn from experience" -Fairy Tail manga
#51  
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(01-Dec-2004 at 09:50)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Menchalior)

Bernel, Grand Canyon, is huge canyon, its like someone has cut thru earth core. What we can see from rocks, are called Sediments. Layers of different kind earth, became rock in years.

We can see same sediments in Grand Canyon, Asutralia, in Afrika and in rest of the world, Same sediment, same height, what means it ahppend same time. And that sediment is born when seafloor is becoming a rock. That is general evidences as most scientist agree from great flood occured severeal years ago.

You can ask this from scholars in geographical instutes around world and they can verify this: A great flood has occured that has has global effect...

That is what modern science can proove. And it goes well with Bibles story of the great flood.

Bernel, you don'th va ethat much gebneral knowledge about things as i thought you have... I am bit shocked when you never knew this...
NASA's explanation of the Grand Canyon. I'd take NASA's word on it.. how about you?

Last edited by jond, 01-Dec-2004 at 09:50.
#52  
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(01-Dec-2004 at 10:23)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Menchalior)
Bernel, Grand Canyon, is huge canyon, its like someone has cut thru earth core. What we can see from rocks, are called Sediments. Layers of different kind earth, became rock in years.
Make that a billion years. Read jond's link to NASA.
Quote:
We can see same sediments in Grand Canyon, Asutralia, in Afrika and in rest of the world, Same sediment, same height, what means it ahppend same time. And that sediment is born when seafloor is becoming a rock.
We can see the same *types* of sediments in many places, but that just prove that the mechanism that turn sediments into rock are similar. We certainly don't see the simililarities you claim since different areas had the right conditions for sedimentation at different times. Try looking at a geological map some time.
Quote:
That is general evidences as most scientist agree from great flood occured severeal years ago.
There certainly is no such agreement. How many scientists have you spoken too about this?
Quote:
You can ask this from scholars in geographical instutes around world and they can verify this: A great flood has occured that has has global effect...
Odd that they forgot to mention this when I studied geology at Stockholm University... We had a girl who was a creationist in our class, and even she was impressed by the evidence for evolution and an old Earth presented. Try taking a geology class too.
Quote:
Bernel, you don'th va ethat much gebneral knowledge about things as i thought you have... I am bit shocked when you never knew this...
It's hard enough to know everything that is correct. You can't expect me to know and believe all the wrong stuff too
#53  
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(01-Dec-2004 at 13:26)


Intresting, why then Programs produced by BBC whitch has several geologian professors around world studying sediments and things like that came conclusion: The Great Flood has been. And bible is right about that, so what Bible tells about great flood is based on true events.

Now we can ask, what else are based on true events?

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
"Sages learn from history... idiots learn from experience" -Fairy Tail manga
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(01-Dec-2004 at 13:36)
Several professors? I bet I could find several that say otherwise...

Seriously, there is a great global flood after every ice age. What's so special about that? Proves nothing.

-------------------------
To do aught good never will be our task, but ever to do ill our sole delight, as being the contrary to his high will whom we resist. If then his Providence out of our evil seek to bring forth good, our labor must be to pervert that end, and out of good still find means of evil.
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(01-Dec-2004 at 13:46)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Menchalior)
Intresting, why then Programs produced by BBC whitch has several geologian professors around world studying sediments and things like that came conclusion: The Great Flood has been.
What professors? What kind of program? Was it the same kind that locate some professor that claims that UFO:s are real and that dowsing rods are a wonderful way of finding water and that he has a perpretuum mobile running in his basement? You'll find a lot of junk on TV if you look for it.

That's about all I can say given your total lack of any details. All geologists I've heard or read agree that there has never been any great, global flood. There have been some local events that has been pretty dramatic and may have helped create the myth.

Quote:
And bible is right about that, so what Bible tells about great flood is based on true events.

Now we can ask, what else are based on true events?
The Bible is wrong about the flood, so the question would be, what has it gotten right?

Think a bit for yourself. Mt Everest is 8848 meters high. How much water do you need to raise the sea level by that amount? Where would that water come from? Mt Ararat is only 5137 meters high, so how could it be the first ground to become dry?
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(01-Dec-2004 at 13:47)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Turbonyx)

When did I ever deny science? All I ever said was that I didn't believe in evolution. What, do you think I'm some sort of cave man that has someone replying for him here?

Do you think that religion is the belief that everything happens by magic? You claim you have indesputible proof that this accident of evolution is true. I say to you, go, spread the news. You will be famous since not one other scientist has been able to with all thier doctorates and PHds and publication upon publication. They can't even agree with each other what exactly happend. Since it is so obvious to you, I feel it is your duty to end the debate today.

And to think, all this time I thought my car ran because I wanted to get somewhere and that mechanical problems were little devils trying to stop me.
Selective acceptance? Excluding evolution from daily life it's like agree to fly only below 20k foot ceiling because everyone knows that heaven is just above, lol.

And absolutely, gods say something and it happens: sounds like a magic to me. Oh, I know: gods never say "abra-cadabra" so it can't be magic, right?

I have news for you: scientific community virtually stopped to discuss evolution on merits of how viable it is. The question moved from "if" to "how" stage long time ago. It's only the religious zealots who seem to be stuck in dark ages.

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...
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(02-Dec-2004 at 10:14)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel)

What professors? What kind of program? Was it the same kind that locate some professor that claims that UFO:s are real and that dowsing rods are a wonderful way of finding water and that he has a perpretuum mobile running in his basement? You'll find a lot of junk on TV if you look for it.

That's about all I can say given your total lack of any details. All geologists I've heard or read agree that there has never been any great, global flood. There have been some local events that has been pretty dramatic and may have helped create the myth.


The Bible is wrong about the flood, so the question would be, what has it gotten right?

Think a bit for yourself. Mt Everest is 8848 meters high. How much water do you need to raise the sea level by that amount? Where would that water come from? Mt Ararat is only 5137 meters high, so how could it be the first ground to become dry?
Program was about Past Disaster. Professors where from such places like Cambridge and things like those. So I would not count anything what they actually say, because now, let's be honest, who would believe what professors from Cambridge or Yale says...

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
"Sages learn from history... idiots learn from experience" -Fairy Tail manga
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(02-Dec-2004 at 12:17)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Menchalior)
Program was about Past Disaster. Professors where from such places like Cambridge and things like those. So I would not count anything what they actually say, because now, let's be honest, who would believe what professors from Cambridge or Yale says...
I may count what they say - if I hear it. I'm not ghoing to count on what you claim they said given your obvious bias. My first guess would be that it might have been a program about the flooding of the Black Sea, which some think is the basis for the myth.
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(02-Dec-2004 at 21:29)


I have no problem with some sort of catastrophic occurence, there is some evidence for it (salt content in the Gulf of Mexico for example) but the idea of completely covering the earth is absurd to me.

Several different cultures tell the story of some sort of Great Flood ... Aboriginal Australians, the Chinese, the Incas (I think) and, of course, there's the story of Upnapishtim (as related in the Gilgamesh epic). Why do so many people tell stories about it? Weren't all their ancestors killed?

For that matter, where did all the water come from and then go? I knew one man who told me it went into the ocean ...
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