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Posts: 984/1288
(26-Oct-2005 at 23:10)


smile Yet another homosexuality thread...

The following is a conversation between emo kat and her roommate, (we'll call her Christine), about the band "Queen".


Christine: "The only reason I don't like Queen is because they were all gay."

emo kat: "Um...so because someone in the band is gay, you don't like their music?"

Christine: "Yeah...I'm a homophobe. I'm a [Christian] chick, I have to be."

Now I know we're all familier with the fact that Christianity and homosexuality have never "meshed" well. It makes my blood boil, but this case is a little different from others I've seen.

Note the words, "I have to be." Does it strike anyone else as a little off that, according to Christine, because she is Christian she must be prejudiced toward homosexuals? She phrased it, not like it were her own opinion, but like she was parroting the Christian doctrine she has been taught her whole life. As if these ideas are so deeply ingrained in her personality that she feels that she "has to" be a certain way. She can no longer distinguish between her own opinion and the the opinion of her religion.

Frankly, I think the term "brainwashed" is thrown around way to much in religious debate. But it seems to me that our poor friend, Christine here, is just that.

The doctrines of Christianity toward homosexuality are dangerous. They fill peoples' minds with blind contempt for their fellow man. Jesus's message was, "Love thy neighbor as thyself." It was not, "Love those neighbors who think the same as you." It was not "Love the righteous and despise the sinners." It was not "Love everyone but those damn fags."

I really wish people would get this through their heads because 90% of the Christians I've talked to on the subject are just like Christine.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
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(27-Oct-2005 at 00:25)


Indeed MAPS... I once had a Catholic housemate. There were 5 of us living in the house, along with myself, there was a lesbian. Did we have some debates about the issue.

His arguments boiled down to his religion taught him that gay people are bad. That was all he could say to us.

It's the way that organised religions are perverted to promote a certain viewpoint that turns me away from them.

Take the radical muslims. They are using a perverted view of the Koran to justify their actions. Go look at Fred Phelps, he uses the Bible to justify his preachings of hate.

If these religions were truely Gods chosen religion, why is it that hate and evilness can spring forth from them?

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
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(27-Oct-2005 at 00:55)


Sure, some of it could be religious brainwashing...

However I have to say that I think part of it is just being lazy.

It is so much quicker just to react to dogma that no one says is wrong than it is to form an oppinion on your own that may go against your upbringing.

None the less there is a lot of religious teaching out there that makes having that general line of thought very easy.

Heisenberg may have slept here. But we'll never know how fast asleep he was
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(27-Oct-2005 at 02:08)




Of course it must be religions fault. Has nothing to do with bigotry that exists within religious people and also within non-religious people does it?

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence
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(27-Oct-2005 at 02:28)


Maybe, Gus, because the religious have holy books which teach them that men are better than women, killing your children is justified if they are rebellious and that sex is an abomination.

Maybe that?

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
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(27-Oct-2005 at 04:02)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)



Of course it must be religions fault. Has nothing to do with bigotry that exists within religious people and also within non-religious people does it?
I never said it was religions fault, I just merely pointed out that the it is unlikely that God would have chosen a religion than can give rise to such hate.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
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(27-Oct-2005 at 04:17)


And I'm just pointing out that it has nothing to do with religion. I have tons of mates who abhor homosexuality, yet they're the most antagonistic people towards the Church I know.

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence
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(27-Oct-2005 at 04:25)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)

And I'm just pointing out that it has nothing to do with religion. I have tons of mates who abhor homosexuality, yet they're the most antagonistic people towards the Church I know.

So your using you firends ignorance as an excuse to get the Church of the hook?

Sorry dude, you mates might be ignorant twats, but after 800 years of persecution by Christians, and the Christian faith being so dominant in peoples lives before this century, I fail to see how it' isnt religions fault.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
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(27-Oct-2005 at 04:34)


Quote:
So your using you firends ignorance as an excuse to get the Church of the hook?

Sorry dude, you mates might be ignorant twats, but after 800 years of persecution by Christians, and the Christian faith being so dominant in peoples lives before this century, I fail to see how it' isnt religions fault.
I'm saying, that it's not the Churches fault. Guess what? Before Christianity there was still bigotry.

And also guess what? In places where Christianity doesn't exist, Homosexuality is also condemned! But of course... must be that damn Pope's fault. Him and his silly hat.

Some people just view homosexaulity as wrong. It has nothing to do with Christianity - something that influences far less people than you think. Just because Christianity doesn't uphold homosexuality doesn't mean that that's the reason homosexuality has been downtrodden.

I blame people in general, and I will always blame people in general. It's pointless to blame institutions, because institutions are made up of people, and people will decide who to hate by themselves.

Blaming the Church for condemning homosexuals is like blaming homosexuals for the creation of AIDS. It's stupid

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence

Last edited by Gus Mackay, 27-Oct-2005 at 04:35.
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(27-Oct-2005 at 05:18)
On average there is no issue here. People are born the way they are.
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(27-Oct-2005 at 13:27)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)

I'm saying, that it's not the Churches fault. Guess what? Before Christianity there was still bigotry.

And also guess what? In places where Christianity doesn't exist, Homosexuality is also condemned! But of course... must be that damn Pope's fault. Him and his silly hat.

Some people just view homosexaulity as wrong. It has nothing to do with Christianity - something that influences far less people than you think. Just because Christianity doesn't uphold homosexuality doesn't mean that that's the reason homosexuality has been downtrodden.

I blame people in general, and I will always blame people in general. It's pointless to blame institutions, because institutions are made up of people, and people will decide who to hate by themselves.

Blaming the Church for condemning homosexuals is like blaming homosexuals for the creation of AIDS. It's stupid
Sorry Gus, I used the Christian Church because I gathered your country is a predominantly Christian culture, even if these days not everyone is Christian. Just because your friends arnt Christian doesnt mean they wernt raised with the Christian moral code.

I read somewhere, (I'll ahve to hunt down the source) thatbefore the 1200's and Thomas Aquinas, Christanity largely accepted or just ignored homosexuality.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
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(27-Oct-2005 at 14:17)


The alienation of homosexuals actually began with the Church. But it was not originally directed precisely at homosexuals.

During pre-Christian times, promiscuity was a sign of fertility and therefore prosperity. Sex was a practice encouraged not only between man and woman, but also between people of the same sex. During the Roman period, as the Church spread its influence, sex became a taboo because of this philosophical obsession the Church has that humans are composed not of body alone but also of spirit and the pleasure and faculty of the spirit (knowledge and rationale) is greater than the body's (sex). This gave birth to the Church's rule of celibacy among its priests. Now, that belief didn't originate from the Church but the Church used its influence to have homosexual acts banned in Rome. So sex was only supposed to be done for the purpose of procreation. Because homosexuals can't procreate, they can't have sex or it is a sin for them to have sex. It then evolved into the bigotry homosexuals experience today.

If the Church ever condemned homosexual acts it is because it still thinks sex without procreation is a sin and homosexuals can't procreate.

Last edited by Aletheia, 27-Oct-2005 at 14:19.
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(27-Oct-2005 at 18:34)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)

And I'm just pointing out that it has nothing to do with religion. I have tons of mates who abhor homosexuality, yet they're the most antagonistic people towards the Church I know.
According to Christine it's entirely religion's fault.

"I'm a Christian chick, I have to be."

Address that for me, would you?

You're right it's not all religions fault. There will be bigots everywhere no matter what, but Christianity is only making it easier to be bigoted. By telling people it's actually right to be that way.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')

Last edited by MAPS, 27-Oct-2005 at 18:40.
Edit reason: Wrong quote...
#13  
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(28-Oct-2005 at 00:57)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Aletheia)

The alienation of homosexuals actually began with the Church. But it was not originally directed precisely at homosexuals.

During pre-Christian times, promiscuity was a sign of fertility and therefore prosperity. Sex was a practice encouraged not only between man and woman, but also between people of the same sex. During the Roman period, as the Church spread its influence, sex became a taboo because of this philosophical obsession the Church has that humans are composed not of body alone but also of spirit and the pleasure and faculty of the spirit (knowledge and rationale) is greater than the body's (sex). This gave birth to the Church's rule of celibacy among its priests. Now, that belief didn't originate from the Church but the Church used its influence to have homosexual acts banned in Rome. So sex was only supposed to be done for the purpose of procreation. Because homosexuals can't procreate, they can't have sex or it is a sin for them to have sex. It then evolved into the bigotry homosexuals experience today.

If the Church ever condemned homosexual acts it is because it still thinks sex without procreation is a sin and homosexuals can't procreate.
I would like to strongly point out that your usage of the term "the church" is much too universal to be used when talking about Christianity. "The Church" is almost exclusively reffering to the CATHOLIC church, not Christianity as a whole. As a protestant, I find it mildly annoying to be typecast along with Catholics, with whom I share very little with regard to dogma. (Hope that's the right word.)

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(28-Oct-2005 at 01:36)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

According to Christine it's entirely religion's fault.

"I'm a Christian chick, I have to be."

Address that for me, would you?

You're right it's not all religions fault. There will be bigots everywhere no matter what, but Christianity is only making it easier to be bigoted. By telling people it's actually right to be that way.
People using Christianity as a cover to hate other people doesn't mean it's Christianity's fault. It's still peoples fault. Christine shouldn't be hating Freddy Mercury as a person. The Bible doesn't say that.

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence
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(28-Oct-2005 at 06:24)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Mizeraaze)

I would like to strongly point out that your usage of the term "the church" is much too universal to be used when talking about Christianity. "The Church" is almost exclusively reffering to the CATHOLIC church, not Christianity as a whole. As a protestant, I find it mildly annoying to be typecast along with Catholics, with whom I share very little with regard to dogma. (Hope that's the right word.)
Yes, you are right. I should make that distinction. I apologize if I've offended you.

May I ask what is the stand of the Protestant Church regarding homosexuality and homosexual acts?
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(28-Oct-2005 at 15:17)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Aletheia)

Yes, you are right. I should make that distinction. I apologize if I've offended you.

May I ask what is the stand of the Protestant Church regarding homosexuality and homosexual acts?
No problem, I just wanted to point it out.

I can't say for sure what the stance of the Protestant "Church" is because they're are quite a few, but my stance, which is largely based on the Presbyterian teachings, is a sort of mixed bag. I don't think homosexuality is a choice, I don't think that homosexuals are evil, and I would love to see them be able to get married in the true sense of the word. (By that I mean married according to both church and state.) However, having said all of that, I have to admit that it does bother me to a degree when I see same sex couples together holding hands or kissing. I know I know, it's stupid, but I think it's mostly something that even though my heart feels one way, my mind is still not used to the concept. I guess I should say that I have no problem with gay couples, but I also think that the amount of attention they draw to themselves (both consciously and unconsciously) actually hurts the cause.

WTS. First non-enlgish, then size. It's a good thing you don't get wp for sucking at sig-making. Give me another week and I'll figure it out.
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(Posted as Sotrak)
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(01-Nov-2005 at 00:08)


People will use religion to justify all sorts of bigotry. Remember the interracial marraige thingy? people said God put races on different continents so they wouldn't do each other

What I'm tired of is people using religion to justify bigotry, instead of using religion to justify stands like "I'm against Iraq. According to the Bible, violence is wrong." or "I am against against descrimination against arabs. According to the bible, you should love your neighbour!"

and so forth. But you hardly ever here about things like that. The religious only seem to get religious when there is controversy.

This too will pass
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(02-Nov-2005 at 02:28)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)

People using Christianity as a cover to hate other people doesn't mean it's Christianity's fault. It's still peoples fault. Christine shouldn't be hating Freddy Mercury as a person. The Bible doesn't say that.
Yes, but according to almost every arguement I've ever heard from a christian, they don't like homosexuality because the bible says its wrong(with a spattering of random quotes). This 'christine' feels its her obligation as a Christian to follow the bible, which supposedly has Homosexual acts as a sin. there is bigots that aren't christian, but thats not the point of this thread....the point of this thread is to say that because of what their religion tells them, they can't think any other way.

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(02-Nov-2005 at 02:58)
Quote:
(Originally posted by mikeg542)

the point of this thread is to say that because of what their religion tells them, they can't think any other way.
No I am quite sure they can, infact that is half the reason for religion: doubt and questioning. Christians don't follow the bible because they think they have to or that they are compelled to, it is because they choose to. In their christian minds it has been thought of as the best and most logical way to act and not because they are forced to at all.
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