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(Posted as Condemned)
Posts: 482/1441
(02-Nov-2005 at 06:13)


Quote:
No I am quite sure they can, infact that is half the reason for religion: doubt and questioning. Christians don't follow the bible because they think they have to or that they are compelled to, it is because they choose to. In their christian minds it has been thought of as the best and most logical way to act and not because they are forced to at all.
If their converts, that your statement is accurate. However, for those born and raised to be Christian, its more of a subcultural obligation to be against homosexuality. Its much harder for these Christians to 'choose' anything, this right's been taken away from them. For them, they are simply Christian. Period.

This too will pass
#21  
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(02-Nov-2005 at 07:48)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Condemned)

If their converts, that your statement is accurate. However, for those born and raised to be Christian, its more of a subcultural obligation to be against homosexuality. Its much harder for these Christians to 'choose' anything, this right's been taken away from them. For them, they are simply Christian. Period.
In this instance I would argue whether they are actually Christian at all.
#22  
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(Posted as Condemned)
Posts: 488/1441
(03-Nov-2005 at 07:02)


Quote:
In this instance I would argue whether they are actually Christian at all.
Unfortunately I can argue from experience that many Christians who were born into Christian families feel that they have a "get into heaven free" card. They feel they are Christian by default because they were born into a Christian family and must therefore be a Christian. This pedigree of Christian is one with the blind conformist aspect exaggerated. They hardly think of their faith at all, except maybe for a few minutes at Sunday school, or at their weekly youth group.

I must confess I belonged to this category at one time.

This too will pass
#23  
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(06-Nov-2005 at 17:12)


Quote:
(Originally posted by mikeg542)

Yes, but according to almost every arguement I've ever heard from a christian, they don't like homosexuality because the bible says its wrong(with a spattering of random quotes). This 'christine' feels its her obligation as a Christian to follow the bible, which supposedly has Homosexual acts as a sin. there is bigots that aren't christian, but thats not the point of this thread....the point of this thread is to say that because of what their religion tells them, they can't think any other way.
It boils down to absolutes.
God is Holy or not.
The Bible is True or not.
Moral relativism such as you are debating here has absolutely no bearing on whether a thing is sin or not. You might as well debate over which direction North is...however, regardless of the results of the discussion, North will not have moved a bit and you will either agree with it and be correct or disagree and be incorrect.
We Christians hold the Bible to be the inerrant word of God and we are not God's editors.
Of course we can think other ways as Gott says, but we are confronted by and compelled by the truths of the Bible...like it or not...disagree or agree as to what is "fair". As Christians it is to our folly to not follow God's teachings...and we can expect chastening when we disobey god
On issues of God's fairness, we only reveal our own flawed thinking when we attempt to paint him as "unfair" or "unloving"...I know for a fact, though, that God does want to be a part of our live and that includes us asking the difficult questions...Neither God, nor my faith in God are in any way threatened by questions.

Sorry for rambling...
#24  
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(07-Nov-2005 at 08:00)
A homosexuals role in nature is quite limited regarding an inability to reproduce. Put this next to the merit of the 10 commandments and you have a fairly reasonable belief within christianity.
#25  
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(07-Nov-2005 at 15:32)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gotterdammerung)

A homosexuals role in nature is quite limited regarding an inability to reproduce. Put this next to the merit of the 10 commandments and you have a fairly reasonable belief within christianity.
What does homosexuality have to do with the 10 commandments?

Maybe I misunderstood, but I hope you're not saying that the homophobia in Christianity is reasonable.

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#26  
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(07-Nov-2005 at 19:01)


In regards to what the Bible's stand on homosexuality is, I hope that there isn't anyone here who doesn't think the Bible is against it. It is. Quite simply, there are numerous references across the entire book about homosexuality being a sin. That really isn't up for debate.

Having said that, I think the real question becomes should modern-day Christians still adhere to that belief. I'm of two minds about this, because as we all know, the world isn't clear cut. Part of me says no, of course not. People do not choose to become homosexual, so therefore it is unjust to damn them for it. On the flip side, however, Christianity is not something that you can partially subscribe to. You either trust and believe in everything, or you aren't completely Christian.

As for myself, I do believe that it is a sin. Sorry, sorry, sorry if I piss anyone off, but I'm not going to beat around the bush on this. I believe it's a sin because I believe in what Christ taught. Now, I also believe that just because it's a sin doesn't mean that homosexuals should be persecuted or assaulted physically or verbally because of it. Christ also teaches to treat others with compassion and understanding, not loathing and disrespect. The final judgment isn't in the hands of men, it's in the hands of God. He is the only one able to truly make judgement.

If any of my friends who are gay ever came to me and said, "Jon, do you think homosexuality is a sin?" I would tell them directly that I did. Does that mean I should hate them? Try and act superior because theirs is a sin I don't share? Of course not. I sin in ways they don't, and they do not come to me and rub it in my face. We all need to support one another, not try and step on their heads as a way of lifting ourselves up.

Homosexuals should exactly the same rights as everyone else, because in the eyes of God, there are no lesser or greater sins (with one exception, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.) Instead of putting homosexuals down and hindering their place in this world, we should treat them equally, and work together to help overcome all of our sins.

Damn...I've been reading too many books. I'm going to get some coffee.

WTS. First non-enlgish, then size. It's a good thing you don't get wp for sucking at sig-making. Give me another week and I'll figure it out.
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#27  
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(08-Nov-2005 at 01:17)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Mizeraaze)

People do not choose to become homosexual, so therefore it is unjust to damn them for it.

As for myself, I do believe that it is a sin.
How do you possibly rectify in your mind that something people have no control over is a sin? Would you consider it fair if breathing were a sin?

(\ /)
( . .)
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#28  
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(08-Nov-2005 at 05:59)
It is not homophobia, as Jon said, it is a sin. I didn't mean homophobia, because christians are not homophobic.

Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

How do you possibly rectify in your mind that something people have no control over is a sin? Would you consider it fair if breathing were a sin?
Fair has nothing to do with it, obviously. I am a sinner and so I have to live with it.
#29  
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(08-Nov-2005 at 16:43)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gotterdammerung)
Fair has nothing to do with it, obviously. I am a sinner and so I have to live with it.
So much for God's justice. "First, I'll force you to sin. Then I'll send you to Hell for it when you tried your best."

It's like giving a pop-quiz to humanity without preparing him for it and then flunking everyone who weren't lucky enough to fill in the right answer bubbles!

Btw, you still haven't said what it has to do with the 10 commandments.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')

Last edited by MAPS, 08-Nov-2005 at 16:49.
#30  
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(09-Nov-2005 at 00:25)
Quote:
No I am quite sure they can, infact that is half the reason for religion: doubt and questioning. Christians don't follow the bible because they think they have to or that they are compelled to, it is because they choose to. In their christian minds it has been thought of as the best and most logical way to act and not because they are forced to at all.
I hate to say it but this isn't the case not every christian is a born again or newly converted most are simply born into it without consultation and baptised. Then they grow up only knowing religion and the associated dogmas and rheteric. I think that most christians havn't truely explored other options and questioned their faith to a point where they can honestly say that the can believe in it. Heck not all christians even go to church i woulld know lots of "christians" where by the only time they have set foot in a church is for weddings and funerals. Are these people true believers i don't think so just casue they were batised christians doesn't mean they have devoted them selves to the faith and as such a bit off topic here but why should these people go to heaven just because they got batised when they were a few months old? Really how are these people different to non believers which are going straight to hell.
#31  
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(09-Nov-2005 at 02:04)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

So much for God's justice. "First, I'll force you to sin. Then I'll send you to Hell for it when you tried your best."
That's not the way it is. God does not force us to sin. That's ridiculous. I don't ever recall God telling me to lie to my parents, or steal from a store, or anything of the sort. Humans sin because our nature is flawed. Our nature is flawed because humans chose to reject God. It was our choice, and we pay the consequence. And God's justice was sending his son to earth to die for us, and allow us to once again become sinless in heaven.

WTS. First non-enlgish, then size. It's a good thing you don't get wp for sucking at sig-making. Give me another week and I'll figure it out.
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#32  
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(09-Nov-2005 at 02:34)


That's not what you said. You said homosexuals are born that way but it's still a sin. They had no control over it. God made them that way. Which is it?

(\ /)
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#33  
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(Post has been warned)
(09-Nov-2005 at 03:21)
burrn
#34  
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(09-Nov-2005 at 19:32)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

That's not what you said. You said homosexuals are born that way but it's still a sin. They had no control over it. God made them that way. Which is it?
Ahem, ok I'm going to try and explain it once more. I understand what you're saying, honestly I do. And I see your point. However, I feel as though you're either consciously or unconsciously overlooking the fact that humans have a sinful nature because we chose to reject God. It was our choice, and because of that choice, humans are, by their very nature, sinful. Everyone is born a sinner. Everyone. God doesn't want it that way, but unless He chose to take away our free will (which He could), we have to come to Him, and understand our mistake. God has not, does not, and will not force us to sin. It is entirely up to us.

WTS. First non-enlgish, then size. It's a good thing you don't get wp for sucking at sig-making. Give me another week and I'll figure it out.
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#35  
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(09-Nov-2005 at 20:47)


When did we as mankind consciously reject God? Either you are talking about life before birth or about the Fall.

If you're talking about the Fall, I certianly don't remember everyone getting together and democratically deciding Eve should eat that stupid fruit. Why should we be blamed because of what She and Adam did? Shouldn't we be punished for our own sins and not the sins of our fathers?

If you're talking about a life before birth then Jesus would disagree with you that people are born sinners.

John 9;1-3

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


Obviously it was believed at the time that people could sin before their birth causing them to have afflictions such as blindness at birth.

Sounds kinda familiar to being born a homosexual, doesn't it?

Jesus said that the man didn't sin to become blind. He was born blind because God thought that would be best for him.
Being homosexual isn't a sin any more than being blind is a sin. God saw it best that homosexuals be the way they are.

Mizeraaze, we aren't born sinners. We aren't born as murderers. We aren't born as theives. We are not born as adulterers. We aren't born covetous. These are learned behaviors. We are taught violence. We are taught greed.

You have to make a choice. Either homosexuality is from birth and, therefore, is not a sin or it is a learned behavior and is a sin. What do you believe?

(\ /)
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#36  
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(10-Nov-2005 at 02:25)
Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

If you're talking about the Fall, I certianly don't remember everyone getting together and democratically deciding Eve should eat that stupid fruit.
It is remembered in your blood. If we are all decended from Adam and Eve, then logically part of us is Adam and Eve. In that situation we would have all acted the same way and have chosen the fruit, so for every moment of our lives we relive the consequence for our actions instead of wasting our time and reliving the same events of Adam and Eve. We all have been to the Garden of Eden and we all have eaten from the forbidden tree, or else we would not be here on planet earth.

Quote:
Jesus said that the man didn't sin to become blind. He was born blind because God thought that would be best for him.
Being homosexual isn't a sin any more than being blind is a sin. God saw it best that homosexuals be the way they are.
Then God destined them [homosexuals] to refrain from sex. This is a hideous task but it will be for the better, as you've suggested. You may be born with homosexual desires but you haven't sinned until you've sinned.

And by the 10 commandments I was just pointing out that by themselves they are pretty good culture values and most peoples would be better off if they were embraced. So, if this way of life is not complete rot, than the bible's other advice might not be either.
#37  
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(10-Nov-2005 at 03:54)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gotterdammerung)
It is remembered in your blood. If we are all decended from Adam and Eve, then logically part of us is Adam and Eve. In that situation we would have all acted the same way and have chosen the fruit, so for every moment of our lives we relive the consequence for our actions instead of wasting our time and reliving the same events of Adam and Eve. We all have been to the Garden of Eden and we all have eaten from the forbidden tree, or else we would not be here on planet earth.
I thought God couldn't judge us on what we would do, only what we actually do. If this were not so, why do we have to live this life at all? God already knows the outcome of everything, being omnipotent. He should have just created us in Hell or Heaven to begin with instead of sending us through this life. Why the double standard?

Quote:
(Originally posted by Gotterdammerung)
Then God destined them [homosexuals] to refrain from sex. This is a hideous task but it will be for the better, as you've suggested. You may be born with homosexual desires but you haven't sinned until you've sinned.
Plausable, but why is it a sin?

I understand sex before marriage as a sin between heterosexuals because another life becomes involved. Babies end up in adoption centers or aborted or abused and mistreated as they are raised by parents who never really wanted them. After marriage sex is no longer a sin, so the whole reasoning that sex is a sin is based on the ability to reproduce without responsibility.

Homosexuals can not reproduce so it makes no sense that homosexual sex is a sin. One could argue that a promiscuous lifestyle or carnal mind is harmful to the mind and body. STD's or unhealthy thought processes about sex are obviously bad. But what is wrong about a homosexual couple, who are every bit as commited to eachother as a married heterosexual couple, having responsible, consensual sex?

Quote:
(Originally posted by Gotterdammerung)
And by the 10 commandments I was just pointing out that by themselves they are pretty good culture values and most peoples would be better off if they were embraced. So, if this way of life is not complete rot, than the bible's other advice might not be either.
Mark 12;28-34 outlines the two greatest commandments of Christian belief:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.

Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

It's simply the golden rule. Where else can we find the golden rule?

The Wiccan Rede is a saying that sums up the ethics of the neo-Pagan religion Wicca. The most common form of the rede is "An it harm none, do what ye will." In other words, "Don't harm others." The golden rule in a nutshell.

Observance of moral precepts are also the foundation of Buddhist practice. The five basic moral precepts are to refrain from taking life, stealing, acting unchastely, speaking falsely, and drinking intoxicants. Compare that to the rest of the ten commandments.

Who needs the Ten Commandments? If everyone embraced the morals taught by Wicca and Buddhism we'd be a lot better off. Why shouldn't we all follow them instead of the Bible?

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#38  
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(11-Nov-2005 at 02:12)
Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

I thought God couldn't judge us on what we would do, only what we actually do. If this were not so, why do we have to live this life at all? God already knows the outcome of everything, being omnipotent. He should have just created us in Hell or Heaven to begin with instead of sending us through this life. Why the double standard?
It is immpossible to get inside God's head, trust me.

Quote:
I understand sex before marriage as a sin between heterosexuals because another life becomes involved. Babies end up in adoption centers or aborted or abused and mistreated as they are raised by parents who never really wanted them. After marriage sex is no longer a sin, so the whole reasoning that sex is a sin is based on the ability to reproduce without responsibility.
In part, yes, but it is also so that you may have a strong relationship, be mentally at ease and fulfilled.

Quote:
Homosexuals can not reproduce so it makes no sense that homosexual sex is a sin.
Homosexual sex is the same as masturbating with 2 people. Masturbation is a sin. There is no intent on creating life.

Quote:
One could argue that a promiscuous lifestyle or carnal mind is harmful to the mind and body.
Yes, so? God knows what is best.

Quote:
The Wiccan Rede is a saying that sums up the ethics of the neo-Pagan religion Wicca. The most common form of the rede is "An it harm none, do what ye will." In other words, "Don't harm others." The golden rule in a nutshell.
Perhaps the most basic of human laws? It applies to just about all humans as a general rule.

Quote:
Observance of moral precepts are also the foundation of Buddhist practice. The five basic moral precepts are to refrain from taking life, stealing, acting unchastely, speaking falsely, and drinking intoxicants. Compare that to the rest of the ten commandments.
Buddhism came later, after christianity. Well, the ten commandments are from Judism, and that goes back a fair while. To me this suggests that it is superior, and if correct, vastly superior. If Buddhism is so similar, then it must only re-inforce the original ten commandments and its teachings.

Quote:
Who needs the Ten Commandments? If everyone embraced the morals taught by Wicca and Buddhism we'd be a lot better off. Why shouldn't we all follow them instead of the Bible?
Because Wicca is a joke, Paganism is dead, get over it. Learn from the past and get on with it. As mentioned before, Buddhism is like the asian christianity, in a way. Its similarities dob't stop just at its 'golden rules.'
#39  
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Posts: 156/250
(11-Nov-2005 at 03:01)


so more or less this entire arguement is based on blind faith ....following some rules because others in the same book make sense in living your life. the main thing for a religion is to be able to adapt to the current times. some can...some cant, but a religion that wallows in outdated traditions that have no practical aspect in current society shouldn't have the respect/following christianity has. im pretty sure theres about 0.000000000000...(more zeros)0001% of christians that follow every guide set forth by the bible. But why is the part people decide to follow blindly, the part where people are thought to be sinning by following something they have no choice but to follow.

bah, who needs a signature.
#40  
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