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Posts: 2037/2825
(23-Dec-2007 at 07:18)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by hussein: View Post
No one is forcing religion on kids. The Islamic community wants this school, so that their children have a thorough grounding in the Islamic religion. Only the ignorant, misguided, moronic bigots of the non-Islamic community are opposing the development.
Well bombarding them with a huge emphasis on just one religion is forcing it no matter if it is Catholic,Muslims or Jedi. That's why i am against all religous schools in general.



Quote:
They will not be bombarded by religious propaganda in schools:

1. You don't know what the religious curriculum entails
Tell us. Are you actuyally claiming that there won't be a huge emphasis on Islam in this school?

Quote:
2. The school will have to be accredited and inspected every 6 years, just like my school (the co-educational, independent, Anglican affiliated Newcastle Grammar School)
3. Non-Muslims are welcome to attend
4. It will have to abide by the New South Wales curriculum
Irrelevant



And now an important message for hussein.


Let me show you how you quote. It's rather simple you do it like this

[quote*]insert text you want to quote[*/quote] just remove the *

There is an automatic button to do it as welll. You know the window for answering. Where we start with the B I U? Well right here third from the right. The one that kinda looks like a square.

There is no need to make a dozens posts

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 23-Dec-2007 at 07:19.
#21  
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(23-Dec-2007 at 07:27)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by Konctre19: View Post
wow

on hussein's 3rd or 4th post i left a rep message "stop writing 17 posts in a row"

i had no idea it was ACTUALLY close to that many



the parents want the school so they can indoctrinate their kids

that IS forcing religion on kids



pretty much all religious schools should be closed yes

i dont advocate discrimination - i dont think there should be ANY religious schools... but as christianity is a western religion (and we are a western country) a christian school - while religious and therefore bad - would not create the possibility of segregating people

of course, im not saying all the islamic schoolkids would be segregated from the rest of australian society, but many certainly would



it doesnt matter, because there are less than a million aboriginals in australia



im sure he is... does not mean they all are



yeah, what about it??



as much, yes.

but if foreign religions become an official part of a school, it creates a danger of segregation



doesnt matter... the NSW government does not require the school to teach all religions... it will be teaching Islam, and is therefore no objective in the area of religion

the rest of the curriculum would of course be factual



yeah coz all NSW students have to learn religious studies
Funny, do I hear these Muslim kids complaining about being indoctrinated in religion?

Actually, it has been found that Africans are more pious Christians than Europeans.

What segregation? The school will also admit non-Muslim schoolchildren; indeed, Malek Fahd Islamic High School was in the top 10 high schools for the Higher School Certificate this year. That suggests that they have integrated, are progressive and pluralistic.

So minorities' rights should be overriden. Tyranny of the majority?

Again, what is the deal with this foreign religion? Christianity is NOT a native religion:
a. Most Australians who are officially Christians, are not practising Christians.
b. Aboriginals were the original inhabitants of Australia, and were certainly not Christians. They believed in the Dreamtime.
c. Most Muslim Australians were born and bred in Australia. What, are they adhering to a 'foreign' ideology, are they?

If the people want to be educated in their religion, that is their business. If you do not agree with the Islamic religion, or for that matter any religion, that is your business. But please do not interfere in people's practice of their own religion. As long as it does not impinge on your religiously-lacking life, why are you opposed to this development? People's right to practise their religion is guaranteed in the Australian Constitution.

That is not the point. These schoolkids would have the opportunity to study Studies of Religion, so they wouldn't have a narrow point of view.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School

Last edited by hussein, 23-Dec-2007 at 07:32.
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(23-Dec-2007 at 07:31)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
Well bombarding them with a huge emphasis on just one religion is forcing it no matter if it is Catholic,Muslims or Jedi. That's why i am against all religous schools in general.




Tell us. Are you actuyally claiming that there won't be a huge emphasis on Islam in this school?


Irrelevant



And now an important message for hussein.


Let me show you how you quote. It's rather simple you do it like this

[quote*]insert text you want to quote[*/quote] just remove the *

There is an automatic button to do it as welll. You know the window for answering. Where we start with the B I U? Well right here third from the right. The one that kinda looks like a square.

There is no need to make a dozens posts
Yeah, just as much as these equivalents of Sunday schools that I hear agnostics/atheists are developing to protect their own non-belief is not "indoctrination", so to say?

If people want to practise a religion, they need to be educated in it. The Australian Constitution guarantees the right to freedom of religion. They cannot freely exercise their right if people like you hamstring them by inhibiting their religious education.

Yes, there will be a huge emphasis on Islam in this school. Duh. That is the point. The students will predominantly be pious Muslims; they want to be educated thoroughly in Islam.

I actually do believe there is a necessity to make a dozen posts.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
#23  
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(Post has been warned)
(23-Dec-2007 at 07:33)


Moreover, why do you give a damn if it is 12 posts or 120 posts?

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
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(23-Dec-2007 at 07:35)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by Konctre19: View Post

the parents want the school so they can indoctrinate their kids

that IS forcing religion on kids
Parents have the right to send their children to a school of their choice until the age of 16. This is enshrined in NSW law.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School

Last edited by Konc, 23-Dec-2007 at 17:21.
Edit reason: [/QUOTE] was missing the [/
#25  
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(Posted as Konctre19)
Posts: 716/1971
(23-Dec-2007 at 09:14)


Quote:
Funny, do I hear these Muslim kids complaining about being indoctrinated in religion?
no because they have been indoctrinated in it

Quote:
Actually, it has been found that Africans are more pious Christians than Europeans.
relevance??

Quote:
What segregation? The school will also admit non-Muslim schoolchildren
of course they will, they have to

but how many do you think will attend

Quote:
indeed, Malek Fahd Islamic High School was in the top 10 high schools for the Higher School Certificate this year. That suggests that they have integrated, are progressive and pluralistic.
does it?? i dont think so...

"one of these schools has quality education therefore they are not segregated"

right

Quote:
So minorities' rights should be overriden. Tyranny of the majority?
no minorities' rights should be preserved, but so should the rule of the majority... and the preservation of the culture of this nation

Quote:
Again, what is the deal with this foreign religion? Christianity is NOT a native religion:
a. Most Australians who are officially Christians, are not practising Christians.
totally irrelevant

Quote:
b. Aboriginals were the original inhabitants of Australia, and were certainly not Christians. They believed in the Dreamtime.
australian culture is not aboriginal culture

so what if they were the original inhabitants?? now we are the main inhabitants... we never believed in the dreamtime

Quote:
c. Most Muslim Australians were born and bred in Australia. What, are they adhering to a 'foreign' ideology, are they?
yes, they are

well, a foreign religion... i dont think its quite the same as an ideology

Quote:
If the people want to be educated in their religion, that is their business. If you do not agree with the Islamic religion, or for that matter any religion, that is your business. But please do not interfere in people's practice of their own religion. As long as it does not impinge on your religiously-lacking life, why are you opposed to this development? People's right to practise their religion is guaranteed in the Australian Constitution.
yes but a school should never teach anything subjective

if you want to be educated in the islamic faith, go to mosque or whatever... dont jam this shit into our education system

and i dont call it shit coz its islam, i call it shit coz its religion

Quote:
That is not the point. These schoolkids would have the opportunity to study Studies of Religion, so they wouldn't have a narrow point of view.
they wouold have a narrow point of view, because they wouldnt study it

Quote:
Moreover, why do you give a damn if it is 12 posts or 120 posts?
because its goddamn annoying. stop it.

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#26  
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Posts: 2038/2825
(23-Dec-2007 at 10:19)


Quote:
Yeah, just as much as these equivalents of Sunday schools that I hear agnostics/atheists are developing to protect their own non-belief is not "indoctrination", so to say?
Never heard of them. But then again consiering your Hey you atheist thread where you misteriously disapeared you do seem like a very sheltered individual so who knows what propganda you've heard about the evil athetists and their sunday schools


Quote:
If people want to practise a religion, they need to be educated in it
And there are universities for this . And as i said churches and all kinds of other religous instituions could offer free courses. But keep religion away from school. It should present as just another subject like world religion . Nothing more and certinly with no dominant religion at school

Quote:
Australian Constitution guarantees the right to freedom of religion
So? This doesn't have anything to do with keeping religion away from school

Quote:
They cannot freely exercise their right if people like you hamstring them by inhibiting their religious education.
On the contrary they very well can. Unless they are complete idiots

Quote:
Yes, there will be a huge emphasis on Islam in this school. Duh. That is the point. The students will predominantly be pious Muslims; they want to be educated thoroughly in Islam.
Yes and that would be where the propaganda and indoctrination come.This should not be part of school.

Quote:
I actually do believe there is a necessity to make a dozen posts
Because...? Anyway this is not only annoying but could be considered spamming

Quote:
If the people want to be educated in their religion, that is their business.
That's the thing. Kids don't have a choice. And while we can't protect them from religous propganda at home and and church ,temples or whatver we can at least try to make sure that school is a religous free zone where they can develop their own worldview instead of being forcefed religion. That's why i think it's very important to keep school and religion apart

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 23-Dec-2007 at 10:21.
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(23-Dec-2007 at 12:13)


Education is indoctrination. We just happen to live in an age in which we find religious indoctrination to be wrong, whilst other, mostly liberal, indoctrination to be right. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but to ban ban religious schools just because they indoctrinate kids is a little inconsistant.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
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(Posted as Dr U)
Posts: 205/389
(23-Dec-2007 at 12:29)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by hussein: View Post
Islam is not acrimonious to capitalism. Indeed, Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) and his wife Khadija were both businesspeople; this suggestion that the school will be lampooning capitalism to its students is a ridiculous notion.
You don't have to tell me that, I was merely replying to Armitage's anti western sentiment. You should not be correcting me, but Armitage there.
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(23-Dec-2007 at 21:35)


You haven’t heard about atheist equivalents of Sunday schools? Read this:

On Sunday mornings, most parents who don't believe in the Christian God, or any god at all, are probably making brunch or cheering at their kids' soccer game, or running errands or, with luck, sleeping in. Without religion, there's no need for church, right?
Maybe. But some nonbelievers are beginning to think they might need something for their children. "When you have kids," says Julie Willey, a design engineer, "you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on." So every week, Willey, who was raised Buddhist and says she has never believed in God, and her husband pack their four kids into their blue minivan and head to the Humanist Community Center in Palo Alto, Calif., for atheist Sunday school.
An estimated 14% of Americans profess to have no religion, and among 18-to-25-year-olds, the proportion rises to 20%, according to the Institute for Humanist Studies. The lives of these young people would be much easier, adult nonbelievers say, if they learned at an early age how to respond to the God-fearing majority in the U.S. "It's important for kids not to look weird," says Peter Bishop, who leads the preteen class at the Humanist center in Palo Alto. Others say the weekly instruction supports their position that it's O.K. to not believe in God and gives them a place to reinforce the morals and values they want their children to have.
The pioneering Palo Alto program began three years ago, and like-minded communities in Phoenix, Albuquerque, N.M., and Portland, Ore., plan to start similar classes next spring. The growing movement of institutions for kids in atheist families also includes Camp Quest, a group of sleep-away summer camps in five states plus Ontario, and the Carl Sagan Academy in Tampa, Fla., the country's first Humanism-influenced public charter school, which opened with 55 kids in the fall of 2005. Bri Kneisley, who sent her son Damian, 10, to Camp Quest Ohio this past summer, welcomes the sense of community these new choices offer him: "He's a child of atheist parents, and he's not the only one in the world."
Kneisley, 26, a graduate student at the University of Missouri, says she realized Damian needed to learn about secularism after a neighbor showed him the Bible. "Damian was quite certain this guy was right and was telling him this amazing truth that I had never shared," says Kneisley. In most ways a traditional sleep-away camp--her son loved canoeing--Camp Quest also taught Damian critical thinking, world religions and tales of famous freethinkers (an umbrella term for atheists, agnostics and other rationalists) like the black abolitionist Frederick Douglass.
The Palo Alto Sunday family program uses music, art and discussion to encourage personal expression, intellectual curiosity and collaboration. One Sunday this fall found a dozen children up to age 6 and several parents playing percussion instruments and singing empowering anthems like I'm Unique and Unrepeatable, set to the tune of Ten Little Indians, instead of traditional Sunday-school songs like Jesus Loves Me. Rather than listen to a Bible story, the class read Stone Soup, a secular parable of a traveler who feeds a village by making a stew using one ingredient from each home.
Down the hall in the kitchen, older kids engaged in a Socratic conversation with class leader Bishop about the role persuasion plays in decision-making. He tried to get them to see that people who are coerced into renouncing their beliefs might not actually change their minds but could be acting out of self-preservation--an important lesson for young atheists who may feel pressure to say they believe in God.
Atheist parents appreciate this nurturing environment. That's why Kitty, a nonbeliever who didn't want her last name used to protect her kids' privacy, brings them to Bishop's class each week. After Jonathan, 13, and Hana, 11, were born, Kitty says she felt socially isolated and even tried taking them to church. But they're all much more comfortable having rational discussions at the Humanist center. "I'm a person that doesn't believe in myths," Hana says. "I'd rather stick to the evidence."

These people are going to adhere to their religion whether they like it or not. In Islam, there is not supposed to be a compulsion of religion. If they cannot be educated about their religion at school, where else will they learn about their religion? Children spent a significant part of their childhood at school, and so it is a significant moulding force. If they are not exposed to religious education, do you think they will develop religious values as their parents want? I do not think so. But you are arguing that banning religious schools will not inhibit children’s religious thinking. You also argue that religious schools inhibit pluralistic and tolerant thinking. Absolute propagandistic rubbish. The school will admit non-Muslim schoolchildren and abide by the NSW curriculum, which is pluralistic in nature.

Moreover, when these Muslim schoolchildren leave school, many of them will go to university, where people of many religions and non-religions will attend. If their beliefs change as a result of this exposure, well, they can do so, can’t they? After all, a child in Australia can change their religion as early as 14 years of age.

That is a load of bull. Can you imagine 5-year-olds being indoctrinated into Islam? Or haven’t you met a 5-year-old recently? They wouldn’t know religious propaganda if it hit them in the face.

The relevance of Africans being more pious than Europeans in Christianity, and that most Australians are practising Christians, is that it belies the claim that Christianity is a Western religion, Christianity is the dominant religion of Australia and that all other religions entering the country are encroaching on this dominant culture.

Do you know how many non-Muslim schoolchildren will attend this Islamic school? Moreover, the fact that they are admitting non-Muslim schoolchildren suggests the school is very pluralistic and progressive to me.

I am right. You are wrong. If Malek Fahd Islamic High School was educating their kids overwhelmingly in Islam to the exclusion of other HSC courses like Studies of Religion, Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics, etc. (subjects you would argue make for a more “objective” education), then they wouldn’t be in the Top 10 for the Higher School Certificate this year, would they?

No, rule of the majority should be questioned if it is tyrannical in nature. Minorities’ rights should be protected.

The relevance of the original inhabitants for 60, 000 years, the Aborigines, having practised the Dreamtime, is that their culture was supplanted by the Christian religion of the European colonisers. Now, you are arguing that these encroaching Muslims are doing exactly that, 200 years later. Firstly, this suggestion of supplanting anyone’s culture is ridiculous. Australia is multicultural. This policy was established in the 1970s. So no one’s culture is being changed. Indeed, I could argue we are actually positively adding to it  Secondly, if anyone did supplanting, it was the European colonisers 200 years ago. So do not talk to me about supplanting.

No, if born and bred Australians choose to adhere to Islam, that is their entitlement under Australian law. This is not a ‘foreign religion’, because as a secular democracy, Australia does not elevate one religion above any other. Religion is an ideology.

Please, do not use descriptions such as ‘shit’ to describe Islam. If you believe (as you obviously do), that religion is bilge, well, that is your entitlement, you are entitled to that belief. But you are going too far with this profanity.

Why wouldn’t they study ‘Studies of Religion’ for the Higher School Certificate? There is no reason why they wouldn’t.

Go to this link here for my award-winning essay on why the Government should not interfere in people’s practice of their religion:
http://www.law.unsw.edu.au/news_and_...ning_Essay.pdf

Your beliefs belong in the Stone Age. You believe that these schools will be breeding grounds of religious extremism and intolerance. This is to the contrary. By building Islamic schools here in Australia, we are avoiding a situation where Muslims may go to foreign countries, and learn extremist Muslim ideologies, which they then bring to Australia, doing Australia much harm, including even terrorist acts.

Religion cannot be kept away from school. School is supposed to holistically educate us, and this cannot happen if religion is ignored or repressed, as religion is a major aspect of our civilisation, and is integral to understanding how the world works.

Yes, the Australian Constitution’s guarantee of freedom of religion does have something to with allowing religious schools. Freedom of religion is not just a glib-sounding statement from the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. It must be enforced practically, and one of this ways is through allowing religious schools. If parents want a more secular education, well, they are entitled to send them to a comprehensive state high school. If parents want a more religious school, well, they are entitled to send them to one of the many independent, religiously-affiliated schools. That is their entitlement under NSW law.

NO, THEY CANNOT freely exercise their right to freedom of religion if people like you hamstring them. It is people like you who argue against mosque developments as well as Islamic schools such as this one.

Again, with the propaganda. Your beliefs are anachronistic, misguided and bigoted. It is not propaganda. It is religious education. There is a difference. Clearly, you have an issue with religion, but please, do not confuse it with propaganda. Islam has no compulsion of religion. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

What, do you think that the school environment is the only environment they are exposed to? Children are exposed to many different environments, and if the school ends up teaching extremist, intolerant strains of Islam, the Department of Education will land on them like a stack of bricks, in particular they will not receive accreditation to continue operating.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
#30  
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(Posted as Konctre19)
Posts: 717/1971
(24-Dec-2007 at 00:35)


Quote:
If they cannot be educated about their religion at school, where else will they learn about their religion? Children spent a significant part of their childhood at school, and so it is a significant moulding force. If they are not exposed to religious education, do you think they will develop religious values as their parents want? I do not think so. But you are arguing that banning religious schools will not inhibit children’s religious thinking.
of course it wont

want your kids to be educated in islam?? have them read the quran, teach them what you can yourself, and take them to mosque

you still have not established why having it in school is necessary... you keep stating that "fact", but will not back it up... please dont say it again without evidence

Quote:
You also argue that religious schools inhibit pluralistic and tolerant thinking. Absolute propagandistic rubbish.
of course it will... thats what religion does

Quote:
The school will admit non-Muslim schoolchildren
which is completely irrelevant because:

a) few will attend

b) the muslim school children are still being indoctrinated in a religion... this practice should be allowed, as we have freedom of religion, but not within a school as that makes it state-sanctioned, which religion should never be

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Moreover, when these Muslim schoolchildren leave school, many of them will go to university, where people of many religions and non-religions will attend.
really?? well excuse me while i shit my pants

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If their beliefs change as a result of this exposure, well, they can do so, can’t they?
doubtful. if they have been taught religion as fact their belief isnt going to change

Quote:
That is a load of bull. Can you imagine 5-year-olds being indoctrinated into Islam? Or haven’t you met a 5-year-old recently? They wouldn’t know religious propaganda if it hit them in the face.
of course they wouldnt... thats the point... they dont know its propaganda so they believe it

Quote:
The relevance of Africans being more pious than Europeans in Christianity, and that most Australians are practising Christians, is that it belies the claim that Christianity is a Western religion,
no it doesnt. who brought it to africa?? europeans.

yes, middle eastern people brought it to europe, but that was 2000 years ago so it doesnt matter anymore

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Christianity is the dominant religion of Australia
of course it is

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and that all other religions entering the country are encroaching on this dominant culture.
i know they arent, but putting it in an official school does do that in my opinion

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Do you know how many non-Muslim schoolchildren will attend this Islamic school?
very few i would think

correct me if im wrong of course, but not without supporting evidence

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Moreover, the fact that they are admitting non-Muslim schoolchildren suggests the school is very pluralistic and progressive to me.
really?? to me it merely suggests that they are abiding by the law, and it shows no indication that they would admit non-Muslim children if they didnt have to

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I am right. You are wrong.
well it doesnt get any clearer than that

Quote:
If Malek Fahd Islamic High School was educating their kids overwhelmingly in Islam to the exclusion of other HSC courses like Studies of Religion, Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics, etc. (subjects you would argue make for a more “objective” education), then they wouldn’t be in the Top 10 for the Higher School Certificate this year, would they?
what the fuck

no one said they were excluding other studies. why are you refuting an argument that was never made??

the point is, teaching Islam is subjective and should not be done in a state sanctioned school... and being in the top 10 has nothing to do with anything. stop mentioning it.

Quote:
No, rule of the majority should be questioned if it is tyrannical in nature. Minorities’ rights should be protected.
well it isnt tyrannical. and minority rights are protected. but they shouldnt have the right (nor should the majority!) to put religion in school

[quote]The relevance of the original inhabitants for 60, 000 years, the Aborigines, having practised the Dreamtime, is that their culture was supplanted by the Christian religion of the European colonisers.[quote]

true... still dont see any relevance

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Now, you are arguing that these encroaching Muslims are doing exactly that, 200 years later.
not quite... not to the same scale, for instance... but yes... if they put it in state-sanctioned schools... otherwise its fine

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ustralia is multicultural. This policy was established in the 1970s. So no one’s culture is being changed. Indeed, I could argue we are actually positively adding to it
indeed, i would agree... but that still doesnt mean religion should ever be in school

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Secondly, if anyone did supplanting, it was the European colonisers 200 years ago. So do not talk to me about supplanting.
yes, they did. so??

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No, if born and bred Australians choose to adhere to Islam, that is their entitlement under Australian law.
yes

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This is not a ‘foreign religion’, because as a secular democracy, Australia does not elevate one religion above any other.
well yes it is, by definition

but the fact that we are a secular country is the entire point... religion is not supposed to be in our schools

Quote:
Please, do not use descriptions such as ‘shit’ to describe Islam. If you believe (as you obviously do), that religion is bilge, well, that is your entitlement, you are entitled to that belief. But you are going too far with this profanity.
no im not... religion is vile... it is also very subjective and SHOULD NEVER BE STATE SANCTIONED

Quote:
Why wouldn’t they study ‘Studies of Religion’ for the Higher School Certificate? There is no reason why they wouldn’t.
the main reason is because its useless... who the hell would study it... i know i wouldnt

i dont mean they in particular wouldnt... i mean very few people in general would.. so its a useless argument to say its available to them

Quote:
Your beliefs belong in the Stone Age. You believe that these schools will be breeding grounds of religious extremism and intolerance. This is to the contrary. By building Islamic schools here in Australia, we are avoiding a situation where Muslims may go to foreign countries, and learn extremist Muslim ideologies, which they then bring to Australia, doing Australia much harm, including even terrorist acts.
i never said it would be a breeding ground of extremism... it would just be a breeding ground for religion... something that should never be state sanctioned

Quote:
Religion cannot be kept away from school. School is supposed to holistically educate us, and this cannot happen if religion is ignored or repressed, as religion is a major aspect of our civilisation, and is integral to understanding how the world works.
it is entirely irrelevant to our understanding of how the world works

Quote:
Yes, the Australian Constitution’s guarantee of freedom of religion does have something to with allowing religious schools. Freedom of religion is not just a glib-sounding statement from the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. It must be enforced practically, and one of this ways is through allowing religious schools. If parents want a more secular education, well, they are entitled to send them to a comprehensive state high school. If parents want a more religious school, well, they are entitled to send them to one of the many independent, religiously-affiliated schools. That is their entitlement under NSW law.
it shouldnt be... religion should not be in our schools

Quote:
NO, THEY CANNOT freely exercise their right to freedom of religion if people like you hamstring them. It is people like you who argue against mosque developments as well as Islamic schools such as this one.
they can exercise their right to freedom of religion without religiously-affiliated schools

if they cant, they should be deported for stupidity

(yes, for stupidity)

Quote:
Again, with the propaganda. Your beliefs are anachronistic, misguided and bigoted. It is not propaganda. It is religious education. There is a difference. Clearly, you have an issue with religion, but please, do not confuse it with propaganda. Islam has no compulsion of religion. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.
it being not compulsory does not make it not propaganda

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#31  
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(24-Dec-2007 at 00:44)


I like your article Hossain, you're a well-spoken guy. It would show more in this forum if you learned how to properly quote however

“If I don’t have the freedom to disbelieve, I cannot believe.”

That is indeed very true, and a key issue to me when it comes to religion. It is also exactly that issue, that has me worried about religious schools. See, it is very rarely the children that get to choose what type of school they go to. Naturally, it is the parents that determine it, based on the beliefs they hold. As a result of that, we find that the vast majority of believers around the world aren't adherents of their specific religion out of deliberate choice. Rather, they were brought up that way. Simultaneously, most of those believers are dead certain the specific religion they were brought up with is nevertheless the one true one.

It's thus an observable fact of life, that what people believe to be the true religion, is almost purely determined by the environment they grow up in.
From that follows, that we can not ensure that people's religious practice is genuine, as long as we raise children with a specific religion.

In essence, the freedom to disbelieve is done injustice by raising children with a specific religion. Our current world proves it.

You clearly share my concern that religious practice has to be genuine, free from social compulsion, and out of own choice. Only then, is a believer, also truly a believer. Wouldn't it be better then to no longer 'raise people into' a religion, but to educate them about all of them during their school period, and let them decide of their own afterwards?

Surely there is no better way for us to truly give people the freedom to disbelieve, and thus also genuinely believe, than that?

Your brain is unique in the history of the universe. Use it wisely.
#32  
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Posts: 111/493
(24-Dec-2007 at 02:34)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

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of course it wont

want your kids to be educated in islam?? have them read the quran, teach them what you can yourself, and take them to mosque

you still have not established why having it in school is necessary... you keep stating that "fact", but will not back it up... please dont say it again without evidence
Having it in school is necessary in order for these Muslim schoolchildren to have a thorough grounding in religion. It is not state-sanctioned, as you claim. Rather, this is why schooling in the independent school system is such a more attractive option for so many Muslim parents, indeed, parents of many religious and non-religious adherences.

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of course it will... thats what religion does
Then go argue in another thread that religion is rubbish. This thread is specifically dealing with the issue of whether or not the proposal for an Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia, should be approved.

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which is completely irrelevant because:

a) few will attend

b) the muslim school children are still being indoctrinated in a religion... this practice should be allowed, as we have freedom of religion, but not within a school as that makes it state-sanctioned, which religion should never be
No, it is completely relevant. If the school was a breeding ground for religious indoctrination, why is it so that non-Muslims are permitted to attend? Again, how is it state-sanctioned? It is an independent school (i.e. non-state).

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really?? well excuse me while i shit my pants
That doesn’t really logically refute my argument.

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doubtful. if they have been taught religion as fact their belief isnt going to change
But it has happened. And that is their entitlement because there is no compulsion of religion in Islam.

But I know about propaganda, and I am 18 years old. I am religious though, but according to your claim I have been the victim of 18 years religious propaganda.

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no it doesnt. who brought it to africa?? europeans.

yes, middle eastern people brought it to europe, but that was 2000 years ago so it doesnt matter anymore
Yeah, how long ago was that? Oh right, many centuries ago, so it doesn’t matter anymore.

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of course it is
Glad to hear we agree on something.

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i know they arent, but putting it in an official school does do that in my opinion
No, it doesn’t, because you are still free to lead the (obviously) religiously-lacking life you have. Muslims are going to be religious whether you like it or not; the only matter is whether people like you will make it harder or easier for them to be religious.

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very few i would think

correct me if im wrong of course, but not without supporting evidence
Why? Do you think Catholic schools are predominantly Catholic always in Australia? No. Many Catholic schools are attractive to non-Catholic adherents because of their strict discipline and high moral values; as such, some Catholic schools have resorted to a 25% cap on non-Catholic students to combat a problem where the majority of students may not even be Catholic.

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what the fuck

no one said they were excluding other studies. why are you refuting an argument that was never made??

the point is, teaching Islam is subjective and should not be done in a state sanctioned school... and being in the top 10 has nothing to do with anything. stop mentioning it.
Teaching Islam is integral to a holistic education, as it has 1.5 billion adherents globally.

Every state-sanctioned school in the world would teach Islam to some degree or another.

Being in the top 10 is very relevant; you are arguing that secular schools are the way to go; but Malek Fahd Islamic School is an example of a religiously-based school which is very successful. Which just goes to show that secular schools are not always the most successful. And guess what – what is the primary barometer of what is a successful school? Right – academic results.

You do not realise that society is based on what the majority desires – that is what you will learn if you study Law. If the majority of society suddenly started supporting bigamy, bigamy would be legalised. If the majority of society suddenly started supporting marijuana, marijuana would be legalised. If it is the majority’s will, the law will change accordingly, although someone outside that system might disagree.

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indeed, i would agree... but that still doesnt mean religion should ever be in school
Religion will always be in school, and you cannot ever change that. Even the fact that 89% of independent schools in New South Wales, Australia, have some sort of religious affiliation exemplifies this fact.

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well yes it is, by definition

but the fact that we are a secular country is the entire point... religion is not supposed to be in our schools
As a secular country, we should not elevate one religion or suppress one religion in government schools. This school development being proposed is an independent school. Allowing people to practise their religion freely, including educating their children in their religion, means that we should allow religious schools.

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the main reason is because its useless... who the hell would study it... i know i wouldnt

i dont mean they in particular wouldnt... i mean very few people in general would.. so its a useless argument to say its available to them
I believe Studies of Religion is the 5TH most popular subject in the Higher School Certificate. So a lot of useless people must be wasting their time, huh?

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i never said it would be a breeding ground of extremism... it would just be a breeding ground for religion... something that should never be state sanctioned
Christmas Day, Christmas Eve, Boxing Day and Easter are state holidays. Are you suggesting we abolish them? Would love to see you try

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it is entirely irrelevant to our understanding of how the world works
No, it is completely relevant to how we understand the world. For example, if you are a History student, and you are studying the Crusades, you need to have a knowledge of Islam to know why the Crusades transpired as it did. This is what we did in Year 8.

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it shouldnt be... religion should not be in our schools
You keep on repeating that. Use some evidence, because it is growing tiresome.

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they can exercise their right to freedom of religion without religiously-affiliated schools

if they cant, they should be deported for stupidity

(yes, for stupidity)
No, they cannot freely exercise their right to freedom of religion if they are prohibited from developing religiously-affiliated schools. This is discrimination against religion, and this is unconstitutional.

Born and bred Australians should never be deported, and moreover where to? Iran? Turkey? Perhaps Saudi Arabia?

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it being not compulsory does not make it not propaganda
What then is your definition of propaganda? Parents educating their children in what they think is right (i.e. their religion)? This is what parents all around the world do, whether they are agnostics, atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Bahai, Christians, whatever, do.

And I notice you ignore my article on atheist equivalents of Sunday schools. Maybe you should address it.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School

Last edited by hussein, 24-Dec-2007 at 02:37.
#33  
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(24-Dec-2007 at 02:46)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by Dusk Illz: View Post
I like your article Hossain, you're a well-spoken guy. It would show more in this forum if you learned how to properly quote however

“If I don’t have the freedom to disbelieve, I cannot believe.”

That is indeed very true, and a key issue to me when it comes to religion. It is also exactly that issue, that has me worried about religious schools. See, it is very rarely the children that get to choose what type of school they go to. Naturally, it is the parents that determine it, based on the beliefs they hold. As a result of that, we find that the vast majority of believers around the world aren't adherents of their specific religion out of deliberate choice. Rather, they were brought up that way. Simultaneously, most of those believers are dead certain the specific religion they were brought up with is nevertheless the one true one.

It's thus an observable fact of life, that what people believe to be the true religion, is almost purely determined by the environment they grow up in.
From that follows, that we can not ensure that people's religious practice is genuine, as long as we raise children with a specific religion.

In essence, the freedom to disbelieve is done injustice by raising children with a specific religion. Our current world proves it.

You clearly share my concern that religious practice has to be genuine, free from social compulsion, and out of own choice. Only then, is a believer, also truly a believer. Wouldn't it be better then to no longer 'raise people into' a religion, but to educate them about all of them during their school period, and let them decide of their own afterwards?

Surely there is no better way for us to truly give people the freedom to disbelieve, and thus also genuinely believe, than that?
While appreciating your acknowledgement of my well-spokedness and eloquence, I feel I must disagree with you on your sentiments.

Let me explain. I believe that my religion is the best path to follow. As Mohandas Mahatma Karamchand Gandhi said, 'Be as you want the world to be.' As such, I believe being religious is the way to go. As such, as a parent (sometime in the future) I will educate my children in my religion. However, if my children do not agree with these religious sentiments for some reason, well, they are free to do that, as there is no compulsion of religion in Islam.

In addition to educating my children in Islam, I will also give them a pluralistic and tolerant upbringing, probably sending them to (non-Muslim) schools such as Abbotsleigh or Knox Grammar School, which are highly regarded and as such will give my children the best possible start in life, something which, I think, all parents, regardless of their religious affiliation, would agree with.

By your logic, parents should pretty much adopt a laissez-faire attitude to their children's upbringing. But pretty much all parents, to some degree or another, do so. Even atheist parents, by suggesting to their children there is no God, are impinging on their children's spiritual values, just like, Muslim parents for example, may impinge on their children's spiritual values, by, for example, encouraging them to fast during the month of Ramadan from dawn until dusk.

We follow a certain religion or non-religion because we believe that is the best path. Consequently, we also teach this to our children. Our own values will always impinge on our children, and as such, that is why we should always strive to do what we think is right.

For example, I do not drink alcohol. 1) It is best for me. but also 2) If I have children, I do not want them to drink alcohol and be inebriated slobs. After all, a parent's actions always speak louder than their words, for the kids.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
#34  
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(24-Dec-2007 at 02:51)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by Dusk Illz: View Post
I like your article Hossain, you're a well-spoken guy. It would show more in this forum if you learned how to properly quote however

“If I don’t have the freedom to disbelieve, I cannot believe.”

That is indeed very true, and a key issue to me when it comes to religion. It is also exactly that issue, that has me worried about religious schools. See, it is very rarely the children that get to choose what type of school they go to. Naturally, it is the parents that determine it, based on the beliefs they hold. As a result of that, we find that the vast majority of believers around the world aren't adherents of their specific religion out of deliberate choice. Rather, they were brought up that way. Simultaneously, most of those believers are dead certain the specific religion they were brought up with is nevertheless the one true one.

It's thus an observable fact of life, that what people believe to be the true religion, is almost purely determined by the environment they grow up in.
From that follows, that we can not ensure that people's religious practice is genuine, as long as we raise children with a specific religion.

In essence, the freedom to disbelieve is done injustice by raising children with a specific religion. Our current world proves it.

You clearly share my concern that religious practice has to be genuine, free from social compulsion, and out of own choice. Only then, is a believer, also truly a believer. Wouldn't it be better then to no longer 'raise people into' a religion, but to educate them about all of them during their school period, and let them decide of their own afterwards?

Surely there is no better way for us to truly give people the freedom to disbelieve, and thus also genuinely believe, than that?
Also, I recognise what you say. But I do not believe this applies to me. My family raised me Muslim, but at the age of about 14/15, I started consciously thinking about my Muslim values, and decided at the age of 15 years to be pious in my religion.

I believe it is important to argue in forums like these, to counter the arguments of detractors. In Islam, we believe that 'Islam is truth'. Everyone knows if you believe in the truth, that you can never go wrong. As such, I always proceed in confidence in such Utopia Temple debates.

To avoid the situation above you cite, I believe we should teach our children the values we think are right, but also give our child a tolerant, pluralistic and progressive upbringing, so our children can be free-thinking individuals, not just mindless automatons who may be victims of a misguided upbringing e.g. Draco Malfoy, with his pureblood beliefs in Harry Potter.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
#35  
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Posts: 718/1971
(24-Dec-2007 at 04:53)


for the love of christ, stop writing so many posts! why couldnt you do all that in one post?? or two maximum

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Having it in school is necessary in order for these Muslim schoolchildren to have a thorough grounding in religion.
WHY??!!

you have still not said why! you can teach them at home, and take them to mosque... WHY is this not sufficient??

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It is not state-sanctioned, as you claim. Rather, this is why schooling in the independent school system is such a more attractive option for so many Muslim parents, indeed, parents of many religious and non-religious adherences.
it is state sanctioned, and indeed state FUNDED

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No, it is completely relevant. If the school was a breeding ground for religious indoctrination, why is it so that non-Muslims are permitted to attend?
because that is required by law

if the school is not a breeding ground for religious indoctrination, what makes it any different from a school where they dont teach religion?? i thought religious indoctrination in a religious school was pretty bloody patent

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Again, how is it state-sanctioned? It is an independent school (i.e. non-state).
it is officially approved by the state, and it runs a state education system... it is also funded by the state (although personally i dont think any private school should be state-funded, whether religious or not)

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That doesn’t really logically refute my argument.
i wasnt refuting it, i was trying to point out how bleeding obvious it was... of course many students from a muslim school would go on to uni... what im curious about is what that has to do with anything

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But I know about propaganda, and I am 18 years old. I am religious though, but according to your claim I have been the victim of 18 years religious propaganda.
correct

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Yeah, how long ago was that? Oh right, many centuries ago, so it doesn’t matter anymore.
yes, within modern history, and therefore still relevant

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No, it doesn’t, because you are still free to lead the (obviously) religiously-lacking life you have. Muslims are going to be religious whether you like it or not; the only matter is whether people like you will make it harder or easier for them to be religious.
leaving ME free is not what im concerned about... what im concerned about is segregation, which is what happens when you take a group of foreign people and put them in one place... this is segregation, and in fact the opposite of what multiculturalism is about

and i would like to make it easy for them to be religious without having it in anything official and state-sanctioned

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Why? Do you think Catholic schools are predominantly Catholic always in Australia? No. Many Catholic schools are attractive to non-Catholic adherents because of their strict discipline and high moral values; as such, some Catholic schools have resorted to a 25% cap on non-Catholic students to combat a problem where the majority of students may not even be Catholic.
very true... i dont see the same happening to an Islamic school... there are islamic schools around, find me statistics of the non-Muslims attending those schools

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Teaching Islam is integral to a holistic education, as it has 1.5 billion adherents globally.
your religion has a lot of followers, so it is a necessary part of education??

go and repeat year 11 logic and proof

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Every state-sanctioned school in the world would teach Islam to some degree or another.
funny. i dont remember learning anything about islam

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Being in the top 10 is very relevant; you are arguing that secular schools are the way to go; but Malek Fahd Islamic School is an example of a religiously-based school which is very successful. Which just goes to show that secular schools are not always the most successful. And guess what – what is the primary barometer of what is a successful school? Right – academic results.
being academically successful does not change the fact that they are teaching a dogmatic, and subjective religion

Quote:
You do not realise that society is based on what the majority desires – that is what you will learn if you study Law. If the majority of society suddenly started supporting bigamy, bigamy would be legalised. If the majority of society suddenly started supporting marijuana, marijuana would be legalised. If it is the majority’s will, the law will change accordingly, although someone outside that system might disagree.
i understand the concept of majority rules rather well... but that does not mean i have to agree with the majority

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Religion will always be in school, and you cannot ever change that. Even the fact that 89% of independent schools in New South Wales, Australia, have some sort of religious affiliation exemplifies this fact.
that doesnt make it right

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As a secular country, we should not elevate one religion or suppress one religion in government schools. This school development being proposed is an independent school. Allowing people to practise their religion freely, including educating their children in their religion, means that we should allow religious schools.
no it doesnt... it means we should allow muslims to observe their religion in their own home, and in public if they wish, but not within an official, state-sanctioned institution

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I believe Studies of Religion is the 5TH most popular subject in the Higher School Certificate. So a lot of useless people must be wasting their time, huh?
i dont believe you... show me a statistic

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Christmas Day, Christmas Eve, Boxing Day and Easter are state holidays. Are you suggesting we abolish them? Would love to see you try
it is not state-sanctioned religion, it is state-sanctioned breaks from work, which are necessary to keep morale high and keep soceity running smoothly with happy citizens

i wonder how many people actually observe these holidays ina religious context... at any rate, this is not the same as having religion in a state-sanctioned school

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No, it is completely relevant to how we understand the world. For example, if you are a History student, and you are studying the Crusades, you need to have a knowledge of Islam to know why the Crusades transpired as it did. This is what we did in Year 8.
i have studied the crusades... all i needed to know about islam is that it's a religion, and that they had a feud with christians from europe

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You keep on repeating that. Use some evidence, because it is growing tiresome.
evidence is not the appropriate word, but rather arguments... and i have used arguments... i will repeat them

religion is not objective, it is 100% subjective, and has very little supporting evidence (this applies to all religions)... thus, the teaching of any religion should not be state-sanctioned

the state should only be interested in having children learn facts

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No, they cannot freely exercise their right to freedom of religion if they are prohibited from developing religiously-affiliated schools.
BACK. THIS. UP.

why is not enough for children to learn in their homes and at mosque?? dont just say "it isnt", TELL ME WHY FFS!

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This is discrimination against religion, and this is unconstitutional.
no, it is not... disallowing the teaching of religion as fact in an official state-sanctioned institution is just plain fucking common sense

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Born and bred Australians should never be deported, and moreover where to? Iran? Turkey? Perhaps Saudi Arabia?
tasmania

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What then is your definition of propaganda? Parents educating their children in what they think is right (i.e. their religion)? This is what parents all around the world do, whether they are agnostics, atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Bahai, Christians, whatever, do.
Oxford

propaganda

n
Association or organised scheme for propagation of doctrine or practice; (usu. derog.) doctrines, information, etc., thus propagated.

Islam falls under "doctrine or practice". facts dont

also:

Utopia

Propaganda
War Only
Rogues Only

Attempts to convince enemy peasants, military, or wizards to revolt and join your province.

(couldnt resist )

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And I notice you ignore my article on atheist equivalents of Sunday schools. Maybe you should address it.
i didnt read it. it bored me. sounds like a pretty stupid concept though

and i've never heard of them

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#36  
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Posts: 2039/2825
(24-Dec-2007 at 07:52)


Quote:
You haven’t heard about atheist equivalents of Sunday schools? Read this:
No but then again this doesn't seem to be exactly famous .Nice article. Not really surprised that americans will come up with something like that. Silly stuff

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On Sunday mornings, most parents who don't believe in the Christian God, or any god at all, are probably making brunch or cheering at their kids' soccer game, or running errands or, with luck, sleeping in. Without religion, there's no need for church, right?
Just for the record not all dominaion of christianity do the sunday church. I am from an Eastern orthodox country and we don't really do it


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there is not supposed to be a compulsion of religion. If they cannot be educated about their religion at school, where else will they learn about their religion?
Already told you. There is a mosque,home enviorment and later on university. This is more then enough for a sane religous education even thoguh i dislike the idea of forcing religion on kids.

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I do not think so. But you are arguing that banning religious schools will not inhibit children’s religious thinking.
On the contrary. I hope banning religous schools will give children a safe haven where they will be to think more freely and be exposed to a different view rather then to be constantly bombarded every single minute of their life with religous propganda. As i said we can't protect chidlren at home or in the church from brainwashing but we can give them a break in school


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Moreover, the fact that they are admitting non-Muslim schoolchildren suggests the school is very pluralistic and progressive to me
Or more likely sugests that it's founders are not idiots and don't wanna get their asses kicked in the court and in the media

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I am right. You are wrong.
Wow great way of thinking.

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No, rule of the majority should be questioned if it is tyrannical in nature. Minorities’ rights should be protected.
No children should be protected

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Please, do not use descriptions such as ‘shit’ to describe Islam. If you believe (as you obviously do), that religion is bilge, well, that is your entitlement, you are entitled to that belief. But you are going too far with this profanity.
Hey you are the one talking about freedom. There is also the freedom of speech

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Religion cannot be kept away from school.
Religion has a place in school. In world religion class and prehaps philosophy. Maybe in literature class as well. And no religion should be a dominant one in school

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NO, THEY CANNOT freely exercise their right to freedom of religion if people like you hamstring them.
Yes they can. What people like you can't do if people like us succed is forcefed religon to their children every single moment of it's life

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Again, with the propaganda. Your beliefs are anachronistic, misguided and bigoted. It is not propaganda. It is religious education. There is a difference.
Yes there is. Religous education can be done in a world religion class and later on in university. Religous propganda is when you have huge emphasis on one single religion with the added pressure at home

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Islam has no compulsion of religion. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong
Back to i am right you are wrong. Great argument. Very third grade but then again we are arguing about school

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 24-Dec-2007 at 07:58.
#37  
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(24-Dec-2007 at 09:26)


Wow, is controversy in regards to Islamic schools the latest craze in Australia? Seems like the same thing is happening in Bass Hill, another suburb in Sydney.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege!
Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia - The Fear of Long Words
#38  
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Posts: 493
(24-Dec-2007 at 21:00)


Quote:
for the love of christ, stop writing so many posts! why couldnt you do all that in one post?? or two maximum
Three is not many more than two.

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WHY??!!

you have still not said why! you can teach them at home, and take them to mosque... WHY is this not sufficient??
Trained professionals can teach them at school; the parents want them to have a proper religious education. It is just like, for example, Mathematics. If you want your kids to be good at Mathematics, you don’t teach them yourselves, although you may have taken it at school. You send them to a tutor. Moreover, it is people like you who oppose the development of mosques at school.

Who on earth asked you to interfere with the kids’ religious education? That’s right, no one. If any kids complain, well, then you can start interfering. But strange, programs on ABC such as ‘Compass’ seem to suggest that Muslim kids are very happy with their religious lives.

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it is state sanctioned, and indeed state FUNDED
1. It is not a government school.
2. It is an independent school
3. The majority of funding comes from independent sources
4. Government funding comes from where? Oh right, taxpayers’ money.
And, oh yeah, that’s right, Muslims and other religious people are taxpayers as well as non-religious, secular people

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because that is required by law

if the school is not a breeding ground for religious indoctrination, what makes it any different from a school where they dont teach religion?? i thought religious indoctrination in a religious school was pretty bloody patent
Refer to the article from Time Magazine.

It is not always required by law. A bar recently obtained an exemption from the Equal Rights Commission, so it can now admit only gay people. Moreover, Saint Francis Xavier’s, a Year 11 and 12 school in Newcastle, prefers Catholics. But this runs counter to what you are saying.

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i wasnt refuting it, i was trying to point out how bleeding obvious it was... of course many students from a muslim school would go on to uni... what im curious about is what that has to do with anything
What I’m saying is that if indeed your argument had any validity and these kids will be the victim of religious propaganda, the pluralistic and multicultural nature of university will undo this forcefed indoctrination, won’t it?

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Correct
Incorrect – I made up my own mind about my own religious piety, no one forced me to.

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yes, within modern history, and therefore still relevant
Strange, you were telling me a bit earlier that because the Aborigines being the original inhabitants of Australia 200 years ago for 60, 000 years, it doesn’t matter. What matters is NOW. Will you clarify once and for all what you are saying?

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leaving ME free is not what im concerned about... what im concerned about is segregation, which is what happens when you take a group of foreign people and put them in one place... this is segregation, and in fact the opposite of what multiculturalism is about
and i would like to make it easy for them to be religious without having it in anything official and state-sanctioned
It is not segregation; Muslims will still engage with the wider community. Giving official status to a religion makes it easier for the practitioners of a religion, not harder. Muslim schoolchildren in Muslim schools will sign the Australian National Anthem.

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very true... i dont see the same happening to an Islamic school... there are islamic schools around, find me statistics of the non-Muslims attending those schools
Maybe there aren’t too many of those statistics, because people like you are preventing their development in Australia.

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your religion has a lot of followers, so it is a necessary part of education??
Absolutely. Anything that is an important aspect of our world must be taught in an education, otherwise that education will be lacking. Why would you think that we learn about Catholicism, Hinduism and Buddhism? Because each of these has hundreds of millions of adherents. Why do you think we learn about the United States of America and China? Because both of these are major superpowers that shape and will the shape we live in. Not learning about them would leave our education sorely deficient.

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funny. i dont remember learning anything about islam
In 13 years of education, you never even touched on Islam? Pfft. Which school did you go to?

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being academically successful does not change the fact that they are teaching a dogmatic, and subjective religion
Religion is not supposed to be undogmatic and objective – that is why it is a religion. Being academically successful suggests that the school does not focus on religion to the exclusion of all others, and indeed, focuses on those ‘objective’ subjects which you clearly desire so much to great effect.

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i understand the concept of majority rules rather well... but that does not mean i have to agree with the majority
Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for me) you have to live with the will of the majority.

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that doesnt make it right
YOU don’t believe it is right, because you aren’t religious. Well, go set up another thread to argue with that. You have to live with it, because you can never, ever, change it. Personally, I believe it is a good thing, as it gives parents choice. That is why independent schooling is so attractive to so many parents for their children.

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no it doesnt... it means we should allow muslims to observe their religion in their own home, and in public if they wish, but not within an official, state-sanctioned institution
It is not an official institution. It is a private institution.

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dont believe you... show me a statistic
You can choose not to believe me. That’s your problem.

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it is not state-sanctioned religion, it is state-sanctioned breaks from work, which are necessary to keep morale high and keep soceity running smoothly with happy citizens

i wonder how many people actually observe these holidays ina religious context... at any rate, this is not the same as having religion in a state-sanctioned school
No, it is exactly the same. You are suggesting the state-sanctioning of any religion is wrong. Well, the government is sanctioning religion, by providing official status to these Christian holidays – Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Bboxing Day and Easter. Either renounce the official recognition of these holidays to coincide with your disbelief in religious schools, or just admit you are a hypocrite.

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i have studied the crusades... all i needed to know about islam is that it's a religion, and that they had a feud with christians from Europe
Funny…when I studied the Crusades in Year 8, we also studied Islam. I believe Islam, indeed, religion, is important to understanding how the Crusades transpired. For example, the Pope’s authority to send those Christians to wage war on those infidel Muslims.

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religion is not objective, it is 100% subjective, and has very little supporting evidence (this applies to all religions)... thus, the teaching of any religion should not be state-sanctioned

the state should only be interested in having children learn facts
History is subjective. Are you suggesting schools shouldn’t teach them?
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BACK. THIS. UP.

why is not enough for children to learn in their homes and at mosque?? dont just say "it isnt", TELL ME WHY FFS!
Freedom of religion is not just a glib-sounding statement. It means actual freedom. It means that Muslims can educate their children in Muslim schools if they want to. You claim that religion is propaganda. Well, what difference to you is it if religion is taught in a mosque, or in a school? Nothing, there is no difference. But wait, before you say that it is in a state-sanctioned institution, these mosques need a permit from the council, and often do receive funding from government.

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no, it is not... disallowing the teaching of religion as fact in an official state-sanctioned institution is just plain fucking common sense
But for Muslims, Islam IS fact. School or no school, that is not going to change their perspective. Disallowing the teaching of religion as fact in an official state-sanctioned institution is just plain fucking common sense, is it? Is that why 89% of independent schools in Australia are religiously-affiliated? That must make for a fair few hundred thousand idiot parents and kids.

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Tasmania
You’re on crack.

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Oxford

propaganda

n
Association or organised scheme for propagation of doctrine or practice; (usu. derog.) doctrines, information, etc., thus propagated.
Glad we clarified that. I shall operate from this basis now on then.

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i didnt read it. it bored me. sounds like a pretty stupid concept though

and i've never heard of them
Well now you’ve heard of them. You don’t want to read them, because you don’t want to admit that atheists/agnostics “indoctrinate” their children (according to your logic as well), and so, if everyone in the world is guilty, well, then, it can’t be much of a crime, can it? Not to mention your logic is completely moronic in the first place, with your talk of indoctrination and propaganda. After all, law reflects the will of the majority of society.

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Just for the record not all dominaion of christianity do the sunday church. I am from an Eastern orthodox country and we don't really do it
Speak to the people who wrote the article in TIME magazine, not me.

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Already told you. There is a mosque,home enviorment and later on university. This is more then enough for a sane religous education even thoguh i dislike the idea of forcing religion on kids.
A school environment will provide trained theologians to teach their children. The parents may prefer to send their kids to be properly religiously educated, rather than informally. And no one is forcing religion kids. Otherwise, we’d hear Muslim kids complaining, wouldn’t we?

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On the contrary. I hope banning religous schools will give children a safe haven where they will be to think more freely and be exposed to a different view rather then to be constantly bombarded every single minute of their life with religous propganda. As i said we can't protect chidlren at home or in the church from brainwashing but we can give them a break in school
You are ideologically opposed to religion, thus you are speaking this way – ‘we can’t protect children at home or in the church from brainwashing but we can give them a break in school’. This biases your arguments – you are not interested in the children’s welfare. You are interested in pushing your own atheistic/agnostic agenda.

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Or more likely sugests that it's founders are not idiots and don't wanna get their asses kicked in the court and in the media
It is not always required by law. A bar recently obtained an exemption from the Equal Rights Commission, so it can now admit only gay people. Moreover, Saint Francis Xavier’s, a Year 11 and 12 school in Newcastle, prefers Catholics. But this runs counter to what you are saying.

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Wow great way of thinking.
Excellent way of thinking.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
- Winston Churchill

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No children should be protected
Agreed.

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Hey you are the one talking about freedom. There is also the freedom of speech
Freedom of speech, not freedom to spout unsubstantiated, vilifying, vindictive rubbish.

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Religion has a place in school. In world religion class and prehaps philosophy. Maybe in literature class as well. And no religion should be a dominant one in school
Maybe you should demolish the 89% of independent schools in Australia which have a religious affiliation, then all the Catholic schools, and then see if the public of Australia, which you are ostensibly trying to save, agree with you .

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Yes they can. What people like you can't do if people like us succed is forcefed religon to their children every single moment of it's life
These are pious Muslims. Religion is an integral part of your life. Maybe not yours, and you are entitled to your way of life. But do not try to force that way of life on unwilling subjects. Did these people ever ask you to speak or act on their behalf?

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Yes there is. Religous education can be done in a world religion class and later on in university. Religous propganda is when you have huge emphasis on one single religion with the added pressure at home
Interesting – so their religion should not encroach on the school environment? What about when wearing clothing that conforms to the Islamic dress code and praying 5 times a day, which crosses through the school day? Muslim schoolchildren, who are pious, whether they go to a secular school or independent, religiously-affiliated school, will always be conscious of their religious identity.

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Back to i am right you are wrong. Great argument. Very third grade but then again we are arguing about school
Well, I am right. Islam has no compulsion of religion.

Rejection for Islamic school
Heath Gilmore
December 2, 2007

Advertisement
A SYDNEY council is set to reject a proposed Islamic college as tension about religious educational facilities escalates across the city.

Bankstown City Council will determine the development application for the 1200-student Al Amanah Islamic College at Bass Hill on Tuesday night.

Nearly 2500 submissions were received from residents - 1829 against, 649 in support.

Council staff have recommended that the development - a primary and secondary school, a 30-place child-care centre with two residences for caretakers, a reception and convention hall, a sporting hall and an indoor pool - be refused.

Planning director Gerry Beasley said council had relied on advice from the Roads and Traffic Authority and the Department of Education and Training, and its own staff.

Thousands of residents have held meetings to stop Islamic schools being built across Sydney, including in Bass Hill. Last week two pig heads were rammed onto metal stakes, with an Australian flag between them, on the site of a proposed school in Camden.


This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/...394682295.html

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School

Last edited by Konc, 25-Dec-2007 at 11:48.
Edit reason: edit button - find it, use it, love it.
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(Posted as Konctre19)
Posts: 719/1971
(25-Dec-2007 at 00:54)


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Trained professionals can teach them at school; the parents want them to have a proper religious education. It is just like, for example, Mathematics. If you want your kids to be good at Mathematics, you don’t teach them yourselves, although you may have taken it at school. You send them to a tutor.
the important difference is that there is no mosque where you can learn mathematics just as well

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Moreover, it is people like you who oppose the development of mosques at school.
of course i do... whats the difference between a mosque at school and an Islamic school

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Who on earth asked you to interfere with the kids’ religious education? That’s right, no one.
im not interfereing with kids' religious education... id rather stay away from it, and id rather the government do the same by not giving official approval to a religious school

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If any kids complain, well, then you can start interfering. But strange, programs on ABC such as ‘Compass’ seem to suggest that Muslim kids are very happy with their religious lives.
they're kids ffs... they are suggestible. they dont know they are being indoctrinated with religious propaganda do they??

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1. It is not a government school.
2. It is an independent school
3. The majority of funding comes from independent sources
4. Government funding comes from where? Oh right, taxpayers’ money.
And, oh yeah, that’s right, Muslims and other religious people are taxpayers as well as non-religious, secular people
it is a private school sanctioned to run a state curriculum

it doesnt matter where the majority of funding comes from, the fact that the government funds it at all indicates that it is state-sanctioned

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It is not always required by law. A bar recently obtained an exemption from the Equal Rights Commission, so it can now admit only gay people. Moreover, Saint Francis Xavier’s, a Year 11 and 12 school in Newcastle, prefers Catholics. But this runs counter to what you are saying.
it takes a fair bit of effort, and you have to establish that there is actually a reason not to admit non-Muslims... is there a point?? especially when its doubtful that many will attend anyway

not to mention that even if they were allowed, if they did not admit non-Muslims, they would come under a hell of a lot more public scrutiny than they do already... they dont need that shit

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What I’m saying is that if indeed your argument had any validity and these kids will be the victim of religious propaganda, the pluralistic and multicultural nature of university will undo this forcefed indoctrination, won’t it?
nope. i dont see how

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Incorrect – I made up my own mind about my own religious piety, no one forced me to.
is there any chance you would have chosen christianity?? no. why?? because you were indocrtrinated in the islamic religion. you may have "chosen", but since you were brought up to believe in Islam, there isnt really a CHOICE, now is there??

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Strange, you were telling me a bit earlier that because the Aborigines being the original inhabitants of Australia 200 years ago for 60, 000 years, it doesn’t matter. What matters is NOW. Will you clarify once and for all what you are saying?
christianity has come to be accepted as a - in fact the - western religion.

on the other hand, in australia there are less than half a million aboriginals... that's 2.5% of the population... they are the only people that ever followed the dreamtime "religion", or beliefs... the fact that this was the original religion for 2.5% of the population is irrelevant

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It is not segregation; Muslims will still engage with the wider community.
some might... i dont think most would to any great extent

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Giving official status to a religion makes it easier for the practitioners of a religion, not harder.
yes but that is making it official, which as i said i dont want to happen

i want religion to be easy to follow without associating it with any state-sanctioned institution

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Muslim schoolchildren in Muslim schools will sign the Australian National Anthem.
wow. nothing says "we arent segregated" like singing a poorly-written, meaningless song, with the worst case of abuse of poetic licence ever

our land is girt by sea?? W T F... i hope someone got fired for THAT one!

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Maybe there aren’t too many of those statistics, because people like you are preventing their development in Australia.
however, there should be some, since there are Islamic schools... if you cant find them, dont push that argument since without evidence it is invalid

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Absolutely. Anything that is an important aspect of our world must be taught in an education, otherwise that education will be lacking. Why would you think that we learn about Catholicism, Hinduism and Buddhism? Because each of these has hundreds of millions of adherents.
i dont recall ever learning the mechanics of any of those religions... and i dont see why i would ever need to... maybe knowing the very basic concept of those religions is useful, but i dont really need to read the qu'ran, the bible, or whatever hindus and buddhists read to supplement my education

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Why do you think we learn about the United States of America and China? Because both of these are major superpowers that shape and will the shape we live in. Not learning about them would leave our education sorely deficient.
as do religions... but learning in detail about the customs of these religions is entirely unnecessary... as is being indoctrinated in these religions

i can learn about Islam without being indoctrinated into being a follower of Islam

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In 13 years of education, you never even touched on Islam? Pfft. Which school did you go to?
it was mentioned many times, of course... we didnt learn about the customs of it however, as doing so would have been entirely useless to our education...

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Religion is not supposed to be undogmatic and objective – that is why it is a religion.
exactly, which is why teaching of said religions should never be state-sanctioned

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Being academically successful suggests that the school does not focus on religion to the exclusion of all others, and indeed, focuses on those ‘objective’ subjects which you clearly desire so much to great effect.
as well as teaching the subjective dogmatic religion which i am against

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Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for me) you have to live with the will of the majority.
maybe so, but this is irrelevant to the debate...

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It is not an official institution. It is a private institution.
it runs a state-sanctioned program, it is approved officially by the state, and it is state funded... it may be a private institution, but it is state-sanctioned

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No, it is exactly the same. You are suggesting the state-sanctioning of any religion is wrong. Well, the government is sanctioning religion, by providing official status to these Christian holidays – Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Bboxing Day and Easter. Either renounce the official recognition of these holidays to coincide with your disbelief in religious schools, or just admit you are a hypocrite.
no, i am suggesting that the state-sanctioning of indoctrination into religion is wrong... since christmas and easter are rarely celebrated in a religious context nowadays beyond singing songs about Jesus and paying a courtesy visit to church, this is far from religious indoctrination

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Funny…when I studied the Crusades in Year 8, we also studied Islam. I believe Islam, indeed, religion, is important to understanding how the Crusades transpired. For example, the Pope’s authority to send those Christians to wage war on those infidel Muslims.
were you indoctrinated into Islam while studying the crusades?? i doubt it... and if you were, you didnt need to be

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History is subjective. Are you suggesting schools shouldn’t teach them?
history is by nature subjective, but we are not taught historiographical opinions as facts, we are taught them as opinions... we are shown sources and told to study them with scrutiny, and not take everything at face value, we are taught historical facts and told to infer our own thoughts and opinions from them, discuss their merits, refine them, find out what really happened... history is about scrutinising evidence to discover the truth

religion is about saying "god made the universe, and dont you dare say otherwise"

there is no comparison

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Freedom of religion is not just a glib-sounding statement. It means actual freedom. It means that Muslims can educate their children in Muslim schools if they want to.
no it doesnt... it means you are free to worship whoever you wish... it does not mean the state is required to say "we officially condone the teaching of this"

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You claim that religion is propaganda. Well, what difference to you is it if religion is taught in a mosque, or in a school? Nothing, there is no difference.
no much difference, except if it is only taught in a mosque, it means the state isnt saying "we officially approve it"

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But wait, before you say that it is in a state-sanctioned institution, these mosques need a permit from the council, and often do receive funding from government.
they need a permit because they are building a rather large structure... it has little to do with what happens inside said structure

as for government funding... i dont think that should happen either... complete separation of church (and mosque, and synagogue, and other temples ) and state

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But for Muslims, Islam IS fact.
for the department of education, it is not, and therefore the teaching of it should not be condoned by them

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Disallowing the teaching of religion as fact in an official state-sanctioned institution is just plain fucking common sense, is it? Is that why 89% of independent schools in Australia are religiously-affiliated? That must make for a fair few hundred thousand idiot parents and kids.
not really... there are many reasons why a non-religious family might see why it is a good thing to send their kids to a religious school... discipline and stuff for one thing... and maybe for many its just because its a private school, and they are too snobby for a public school - then again, they tend to be idiots

but these aside, it is still wrong to have a state-sanctioned school that adds to the indoctrination of children into religion... and indeed the non-religious benefits can still be there without the religion itself

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You’re on crack.
sif. it's a foolproof plan!

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Well now you’ve heard of them. You don’t want to read them, because you don’t want to admit that atheists/agnostics “indoctrinate” their children (according to your logic as well), and so, if everyone in the world is guilty, well, then, it can’t be much of a crime, can it? Not to mention your logic is completely moronic in the first place, with your talk of indoctrination and propaganda. After all, law reflects the will of the majority of society.
well, as i said i didnt read it, but if it is truly indoctrination into atheism (i dont see how you could possibly doctrinate people into agnosticism since by definition it doesnt have any beliefs (or indeed non-beliefs) to indoctrinate) then i am just as much against that

just because it is anti-religion does not mean i agree with it

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Last week two pig heads were rammed onto metal stakes, with an Australian flag between them, on the site of a proposed school in Camden.
that's rather disgraceful... and we can clearly see that the people of Camden are merely bigots and xenophobes... they are right not to want it, but for VERY wrong reasons

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
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