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Posts: 115/493
(25-Dec-2007 at 06:13)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

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the important difference is that there is no mosque where you can learn mathematics just as well
If you have any idea of the status of mosques in Muslim societies, you know that they can perform secular functions as well e.g. in Bangladesh night-schooling in literacy for illiterate farmers.

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of course i do... whats the difference between a mosque at school and an Islamic school
What’s the difference between a Chapel at school and a Christian school?

Moreover, providing an area to pray is something done in many institutions – airports, offices, etc. It is not just schools. Making it easier for people to practise their religions, not harder, is just the humane thing to do.

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im not interfereing with kids' religious education... id rather stay away from it, and id rather the government do the same by not giving official approval to a religious school
You’re interfering with kids’ religious education by inhibiting it.

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they're kids ffs... they are suggestible. they dont know they are being indoctrinated with religious propaganda do they??
Kids assume responsibility for their actions in the criminal justice system from the age of 14. Under the concept of doli incapax, the prosecution can suggest that a juvenile offender understand the immorality of their actions.

So if the law thinks that they are this intelligent, I think you should steer away from suggesting these kids are the victims of religious propaganda.

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it is a private school sanctioned to run a state curriculum

it doesnt matter where the majority of funding comes from, the fact that the government funds it at all indicates that it is state-sanctioned
The government doesn’t sanction the religious aspect of it, it provides funding because the parents of the children who attend it are taxpayers, and as such are entitled to a proportion of government money for the school. Indeed, independent schools such as this one are actually helping the secular state school system, since it saves it money.

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it takes a fair bit of effort, and you have to establish that there is actually a reason not to admit non-Muslims... is there a point?? especially when its doubtful that many will attend anyway

not to mention that even if they were allowed, if they did not admit non-Muslims, they would come under a hell of a lot more public scrutiny than they do already... they dont need that shit
Would you send your kid to an Orthodox Jewish school? Would a pious Catholic send their kid to a Muslim school? Doubtful. So I don’t think it would be cause for that much media scrutiny if they applied for such an exemption.

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is there any chance you would have chosen christianity?? no. why?? because you were indocrtrinated in the islamic religion. you may have "chosen", but since you were brought up to believe in Islam, there isnt really a CHOICE, now is there??
But I THOUGHT about Islam; I am not just a mindless automaton, reciting the ideology I was brought up with like Draco Malfoy with his pureblood mantra in Harry Potter. Moreover I have attended an Anglican-affiliated school for the past 5 years.

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christianity has come to be accepted as a - in fact the - western religion.
Wrong. Piety in the Western world relating to the Christian religion is declining. Christianity is an international religion. It is as valid as saying that Islam is an Arab religion, which is erroneous, because the biggest Muslim country in the world today is Indonesia, followed by India.

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on the other hand, in australia there are less than half a million aboriginals... that's 2.5% of the population... they are the only people that ever followed the dreamtime "religion", or beliefs... the fact that this was the original religion for 2.5% of the population is irrelevant
Why? It is the original religion. If more people in the non-Western world devoutly practise Christianity than in the Western world, doesn’t this belie your claim that Christianity is the Western religion?

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some might... i dont think most would to any great extent
Oh yeah? How many Muslim friends do you have? No really, I’m interested.

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wow. nothing says "we arent segregated" like singing a poorly-written, meaningless song, with the worst case of abuse of poetic licence ever

our land is girt by sea?? W T F... i hope someone got fired for THAT one!
Did I ask for your esteemed musical judgement? No. The point is that the Australian National Anthem is a unifying song meant to show that we are all Australians. It always creates a surge of patriotism in me when I sing it.

Are they burning Australian flags? I do not think so.

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however, there should be some, since there are Islamic schools... if you cant find them, dont push that argument since without evidence it is invalid
And according to you they should be destroyed.

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i dont recall ever learning the mechanics of any of those religions... and i dont see why i would ever need to... maybe knowing the very basic concept of those religions is useful, but i dont really need to read the qu'ran, the bible, or whatever hindus and buddhists read to supplement my education
Really? Reading the Qur’an, for example, could bely the religious basis of suicide bombings, which is very relevant in a contemporary context, given the rise of Islamic terrorism. The Qur’an states that suicide is wrong, as is the killing of innocent people.

Your (obviously) deficient education is in the minority, I am afraid. Just look at Studies of Religion, the 5TH most popular course in the Higher School Certificate. It must be rather relevant to everyday life, mustn’t it? Either that, or a lot of people are morons, in your viewpoint, aren’t they?

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it was mentioned many times, of course... we didnt learn about the customs of it however, as doing so would have been entirely useless to our education...
No, it would be very useful to your education. It would broaden your (obviously) narrow-minded outlook and create a more multicultural outlook. It would help you understand people and their spiritual outlook better. As 95% of people in the world believe in a deity in some form or another, learning about religion is increasingly important nowadays.

For example, you would understand why the Soviets were viewed so insidiously by the local Afghan population when Afghanistan was invaded in 1979, as for one reason the Soviets were officially atheists, and as the Afghans believe in the Supreme Being Allah in the paradigm of the Islamic religion, the Soviets were anathema for them. As such, the Islamic mujahideen were mobilised to repel this infidel invader, and they were an integral factor in the repulsion of the Soviet Union from Afghanistan. The Soviet invasion is an important part of understanding the end of the Cold War.

So this is an example about how learning of religious beliefs has other applications, beyond its inherent benefits.

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exactly, which is why teaching of said religions should never be state-sanctioned
Are you suggesting we not teach History?

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maybe so, but this is irrelevant to the debate...
Why is it irrelevant to the debate?

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no, i am suggesting that the state-sanctioning of indoctrination into religion is wrong... since christmas and easter are rarely celebrated in a religious context nowadays beyond singing songs about Jesus and paying a courtesy visit to church, this is far from religious indoctrination
Or maybe if they don't go to church 51 weeks a year, why bother once a year?

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religion is about saying "god made the universe, and dont you dare say otherwise"
And you would know…how? Since it is clear you have never learnt about anything religious in any systematic or rigorous manner.

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no it doesnt... it means you are free to worship whoever you wish... it does not mean the state is required to say "we officially condone the teaching of this"
No, it means the state is required to say “we officially condone your right to teach this”

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they need a permit because they are building a rather large structure... it has little to do with what happens inside said structure

as for government funding... i dont think that should happen either... complete separation of church (and mosque, and synagogue, and other temples ) and state
So according you to we shouldn’t have Christmas and Easter, because these are examples of religious holidays being given official status by the government.

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not really... there are many reasons why a non-religious family might see why it is a good thing to send their kids to a religious school... discipline and stuff for one thing... and maybe for many its just because its a private school, and they are too snobby for a public school - then again, they tend to be idiots

but these aside, it is still wrong to have a state-sanctioned school that adds to the indoctrination of children into religion... and indeed the non-religious benefits can still be there without the religion itself
Like Malek Fahd Islamic High School, top 10 in the HSC this year, which is far better than most of the secular, comprehensive state high schools which you seem to be elevating as the paragon for education in New South Wales.

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well, as i said i didnt read it, but if it is truly indoctrination into atheism (i dont see how you could possibly doctrinate people into agnosticism since by definition it doesnt have any beliefs (or indeed non-beliefs) to indoctrinate) then i am just as much against that

just because it is anti-religion does not mean i agree with it
First read it, then speak about it authoritatively.

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that's rather disgraceful... and we can clearly see that the people of Camden are merely bigots and xenophobes... they are right not to want it, but for VERY wrong reasons
Agreed on the first point, disagreed on the second point.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School

Last edited by hussein, 25-Dec-2007 at 06:19.
#41  
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(25-Dec-2007 at 07:31)


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Speak to the people who wrote the article in TIME magazine, not me.
Well the article obviously is about the USA. We are talking generally here since this is an internatioanl forum

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A school environment will provide trained theologians to teach their children. The parents may prefer to send their kids to be properly religiously educated, rather than informally. And no one is forcing religion kids. Otherwise, we’d hear Muslim kids complaining, wouldn’t we?
Yes cause free courses at a mosque or university education won't provide trained theologians. And yes when you brainwash kids from small children it's hard for them to complain. Not to mention when nobody cares about them even if they do



But the way just to make a totally exaggerated comparsion. Thousands and thousands of absued kids,woman and so on don't complain. Do you think this is all right as well since they are not complaining?

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You are ideologically opposed to religion, thus you are speaking this way – ‘we can’t protect children at home or in the church from brainwashing but we can give them a break in school’. This biases your arguments – you are not interested in the children’s welfare. You are interested in pushing your own atheistic/agnostic agenda.
No i am ideologically oposed to propganda,indoctrination brainwashing(well more then you they arleady do in school) and whaver you want to call it. Especially when it comes to something as important as religion which can define your life. The kids should be presented with all viewpoints and the choice should be left to them when they are old enough to be able to think for themselves. And since we can't do anything to prevent parents from forcing their ideology at home the least we can do is provide as unbiased and neutral as possible pov in school. That's why i am against religous schools

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It is not always required by law. A bar recently obtained an exemption from the Equal Rights Commission, so it can now admit only gay people. Moreover, Saint Francis Xavier’s, a Year 11 and 12 school in Newcastle, prefers Catholics. But this runs counter to what you are saying.
Yes i am sure they would like to fight legal battles and get the worst possible pr while they are doing it

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Excellent way of thinking.
If you are in third grade maybe

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Freedom of speech, not freedom to spout unsubstantiated, vilifying, vindictive rubbish.
Nope still fredom of speech. Deal with it

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Maybe you should demolish the 89% of independent schools in Australia which have a religious affiliation, then all the Catholic schools, and then see if the public of Australia, which you are ostensibly trying to save, agree with you .
I don't give a shit about Australia. I am talking generally.

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These are pious Muslims. Religion is an integral part of your life. Maybe not yours, and you are entitled to your way of life. But do not try to force that way of life on unwilling subjects.
Yes i am very mich agaisnt forcing your way of life. That's why i am agaisnt religous schools

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Did these people ever ask you to speak or act on their behalf?
I don't need to be asked. Especially from children who i think deserve the freedom of choice

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Interesting – so their religion should not encroach on the school environment?
No. Religion should not be forcefed to them at school.

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What about when wearing clothing that conforms to the Islamic dress code and praying 5 times a day, which crosses through the school day? Muslim schoolchildren, who are pious, whether they go to a secular school or independent, religiously-affiliated school, will always be conscious of their religious identity.
It's up to the school to decide. i personally don't care as long as the school itself doesn't bombard the kids with huge emphasis on just one religion or if the students put religous pressure on other children

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Well, I am right. Islam has no compulsion of religion.
What do you even mean with this? Does Islam itself not tell you to spread it? Don't you yourself want to bombard with your kids with it from the earliest possible age?

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 25-Dec-2007 at 07:38.
#42  
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(26-Dec-2007 at 20:04)


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Well the article obviously is about the USA. We are talking generally here since this is an internatioanl forum
Again, the article was written by TIME magazine, so if you have a particular issue with its contents, perhaps you should talk to them, not me. Moreover, the Islamic school in question is based in Australia.

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Yes cause free courses at a mosque or university education won't provide trained theologians. And yes when you brainwash kids from small children it's hard for them to complain. Not to mention when nobody cares about them even if they do

But the way just to make a totally exaggerated comparsion. Thousands and thousands of absued kids,woman and so on don't complain. Do you think this is all right as well since they are not complaining?
You are raving – to suggest that the plight of thousands of abused kids and women is remotely similar to the religious education of Muslim children, or indeed, for that matter, any religious denomination, is a ludicrous notion.

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No i am ideologically oposed to propganda,indoctrination brainwashing(well more then you they arleady do in school) and whaver you want to call it. Especially when it comes to something as important as religion which can define your life. The kids should be presented with all viewpoints and the choice should be left to them when they are old enough to be able to think for themselves. And since we can't do anything to prevent parents from forcing their ideology at home the least we can do is provide as unbiased and neutral as possible pov in school. That's why i am against religous schools
And what about atheist schools, such as the one specified in the TIME magazine article above? Curious how you omit them.

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Yes i am sure they would like to fight legal battles and get the worst possible pr while they are doing it
Well, practically speaking, it makes little difference; I don’t think many non-Muslim parents are going to send their children to a Muslim school, particularly when there are many other good schools, in the Catholic, Independent and State school sectors, around.

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If you are in third grade maybe
Why?

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Nope still fredom of speech. Deal with it
No, you see that is called defamation and libel. Holocaust denial is a crime in a number of European states, for example.

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Yes i am very mich agaisnt forcing your way of life. That's why i am agaisnt religous schools
No one is forcing their way of life on unwilling subjects. If these children disagree with the Islamic religion 1) The Islamic religion states there should be no compulsion of religion. As Abdullah al’Naim, noted Islamic scholar, states, ‘If I do not have the freedom to disbelieve, I do not have the freedom to believe’. 2) The Australian Constitution provides for freedom of religion, including conversion, from as early as the age of 14 years.
I don't need to be asked. Especially from children who i think deserve the freedom of choice

Who says that Muslim schools will deny children the freedom of choice? No one is forcing them to stay there. If they don’t like it, they can go to another school. This is not like conscription, where you have to stay in the institution.

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No. Religion should not be forcefed to them at school.
There is a difference between ‘forcefed’ and ‘educated’.

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It's up to the school to decide. i personally don't care as long as the school itself doesn't bombard the kids with huge emphasis on just one religion or if the students put religous pressure on other children
Such inciteful language as ‘bombard’ and ‘pressure’ does not facilitate a logical, civilised debate at all.

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What do you even mean with this? Does Islam itself not tell you to spread it? Don't you yourself want to bombard with your kids with it from the earliest possible age?
Wrong. I want to educate my kids in Islam from the earliest possible age. Yes, Islam tells me to spread it.

a)
In case you didn’t notice it, how will you raise your children? Will you tell them, ‘believe what you want to believe’? More likely, your (obviously) religiously-lacking life will naturally bias your children against leaving a religious life as well. So you see, however your parents are, the children will follow their mould.

b)
The point of parenting is to inculcate in your child your values. That is why parents should be wary of developing bad habits, such as smoking, which could impact not only on their health, but also on their moral upbringing. You, for example, believe that atheism/agnosticism is the correct path; your upbringing of your children will reflect this. I, as a Muslim, believe that Islam is the correct path; my interpretation of Islam will influence the upbringing of my children. In both instances, we are doing what we think is best for our children.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School

Last edited by hussein, 26-Dec-2007 at 20:05.
#43  
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(Posted as Konctre19)
Posts: 727/1971
(27-Dec-2007 at 02:19)


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If you have any idea of the status of mosques in Muslim societies, you know that they can perform secular functions as well e.g. in Bangladesh night-schooling in literacy for illiterate farmers.
i personally prefer qualified teachers... would you choose learning mathematics in a mosque to learning it in school??

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What’s the difference between a Chapel at school and a Christian school?
nothing... who said i support chapels at school?? dont put words in my mouth, im sick of you refuting arguments that i never made

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Moreover, providing an area to pray is something done in many institutions – airports, offices, etc. It is not just schools. Making it easier for people to practise their religions, not harder, is just the humane thing to do.
no... i dont see why anyone should go out of their way to accomodate other religions... they should not actively interfere with it, but that does not mean they must actively make it easier to worship... that's YOUR responsibility

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You’re interfering with kids’ religious education by inhibiting it.
im not inhibiting it unless it is impossible to learn Islam out of school, and you have yet to establish how it is

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Kids assume responsibility for their actions in the criminal justice system from the age of 14. Under the concept of doli incapax, the prosecution can suggest that a juvenile offender understand the immorality of their actions.

So if the law thinks that they are this intelligent, I think you should steer away from suggesting these kids are the victims of religious propaganda.
ummm... kids start school at the age of 6, not 14

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The government doesn’t sanction the religious aspect of it, it provides funding because the parents of the children who attend it are taxpayers, and as such are entitled to a proportion of government money for the school.
no they are not... (well, they are but they shouldnt be)... because they are choosing a school that should not have anything to do with the state (and if they fund it and condone it, they have something to do with it...) state should never sanction religion

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Indeed, independent schools such as this one are actually helping the secular state school system, since it saves it money.
private schools receive a LOT of government funding, they dont really save money at all

besides, the thread is not about private schools, but private schools that teach religion, so it doesnt matter anyway

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Would you send your kid to an Orthodox Jewish school? Would a pious Catholic send their kid to a Muslim school? Doubtful. So I don’t think it would be cause for that much media scrutiny if they applied for such an exemption.
well it would, since people are obviously against it, and that would be another reason to throw shit at it, whether they want to send their kids there or not

but at any rate, werent you before saying that there would be so many non-Muslims that there would be no segregation anyway??

Flip. Flop.

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But I THOUGHT about Islam; I am not just a mindless automaton, reciting the ideology I was brought up with like Draco Malfoy with his pureblood mantra in Harry Potter.
you may have thought about it, but since you were raised as a Muslim there is really 0 probability that you would have chosen not to continue following Islam.

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Moreover I have attended an Anglican-affiliated school for the past 5 years.
so?? which school is that btw

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Wrong. Piety in the Western world relating to the Christian religion is declining. Christianity is an international religion.
whether it is declining or not is irrelevant, it is considered to be a western religion... and a lot of westerners who are not practicing christians still follow what they see to be christian values... so yes, it is a western religion

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It is as valid as saying that Islam is an Arab religion, which is erroneous, because the biggest Muslim country in the world today is Indonesia, followed by India.
most consider Islam to be an Arab religion... so yes, it is for all intents and purposes an Arab religion... but either way, its not a western religion

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Why? It is the original religion.
...of a tiny portion of the population

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If more people in the non-Western world devoutly practise Christianity than in the Western world, doesn’t this belie your claim that Christianity is the Western religion?
no... is there any religion you would consider to be more western than christianity??

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Oh yeah? How many Muslim friends do you have? No really, I’m interested.
One. He's from america with algerian heritage.

there's also this guy from india, but he's more of an acquaintance i guess

and i knew this guy in high school a year below me from pakistan

none were segregated, but the important recurring theme is none went to a Muslim school, and therefore weren't put in a segregated environment

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Did I ask for your esteemed musical judgement? No.
nobody needs to ask... everybody cares about my musical opinions

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The point is that the Australian National Anthem is a unifying song meant to show that we are all Australians. It always creates a surge of patriotism in me when I sing it.
you are one person

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Are they burning Australian flags? I do not think so.
just because they dont hate australia doesnt mean they arent segregated

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And according to you they should be destroyed.
banned is the word... destroyed is a little violent

but i dont see the relevance to what i was trying to say

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Really? Reading the Qur’an, for example, could bely the religious basis of suicide bombings, which is very relevant in a contemporary context, given the rise of Islamic terrorism. The Qur’an states that suicide is wrong, as is the killing of innocent people.
yes, but i know that, and i dont have to study the religion in detail in order to know that

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Your (obviously) deficient education is in the minority, I am afraid. Just look at Studies of Religion, the 5TH most popular course in the Higher School Certificate. It must be rather relevant to everyday life, mustn’t it? Either that, or a lot of people are morons, in your viewpoint, aren’t they?
i dont have a deficient education... i know most of what i need to know about Islam... i may study more out of interest, but im pretty sure you cant tell me anything that i benefit from knowing about Islam that i dont already know

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No, it would be very useful to your education. It would broaden your (obviously) narrow-minded outlook and create a more multicultural outlook.
i have a multicultural outlook... you still havent told me what is so multicultural about state-sanctioning of religious indoctrination

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It would help you understand people and their spiritual outlook better.
in what way?? if i care about someone's spiritual outlook - and i rarely do - i just ask

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As 95% of people in the world believe in a deity in some form or another, learning about religion is increasingly important nowadays.
no its not... it is not important at all... why do i need to learn about what some other n00bs believe?? i might be slightly interested, but even then I DONT NEED TO BE INDOCTRINATED IN THE RELIGION TO BENEFIT

not to mention i highly doubt that statistic, and if anything it is decreasingly important, since religion is on the decline

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For example, you would understand why the Soviets were viewed so insidiously by the local Afghan population when Afghanistan was invaded in 1979, as for one reason the Soviets were officially atheists, and as the Afghans believe in the Supreme Being Allah in the paradigm of the Islamic religion, the Soviets were anathema for them. As such, the Islamic mujahideen were mobilised to repel this infidel invader, and they were an integral factor in the repulsion of the Soviet Union from Afghanistan. The Soviet invasion is an important part of understanding the end of the Cold War.
i really dont need to know about Islam to understand the afghanistan invasion... i only need to know that they are devout muslims, and that communism is an anti-religious ideology, and they clashed... besides, i'd say a more important cause of the mujahideen striking back is that their country was invaded, not that it was invaded by atheists

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So this is an example about how learning of religious beliefs has other applications, beyond its inherent benefits.
what inherent benefits??

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Are you suggesting we not teach History?
i explained the difference between history and religion, choosing to ignore it is childish

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Why is it irrelevant to the debate?
because it is... "the majority agrees with me" is understood by most debaters to be an invalid argument... each position should be judged on its own merits, and not how many people agree with it

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Or maybe if they don't go to church 51 weeks a year, why bother once a year?
i dont know, but many people do... the why doesnt really enter into it

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And you would know…how? Since it is clear you have never learnt about anything religious in any systematic or rigorous manner.
obviously there is more to religion than "god created the universe", but the point is religion is dogmatic by nature, while history class is meant to encourage critical thinking

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No, it means the state is required to say “we officially condone your right to teach this”
"...if you fund it yourself and dont associate it with the state by teaching our curriculum in the same institution"

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So according you to we shouldn’t have Christmas and Easter, because these are examples of religious holidays being given official status by the government.
NO. READ MY FUCKING ARGUMENTS AND REFUTE THEM. IF YOU DONT, STOP REPEATING THIS SHIT.

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Like Malek Fahd Islamic High School, top 10 in the HSC this year, which is far better than most of the secular, comprehensive state high schools which you seem to be elevating as the paragon for education in New South Wales.
being academically successful does not mean they dont indoctrinate children

i seriously doubt that its academic success has anything to do with it being an Islamic school... therefore, its academic success is irrelevant, they are still teaching something that should not be taught in state-schools

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First read it, then speak about it authoritatively.
i dont want to read it. i dont support atheistic indoctrination any more than religious indoctrination, so i find atheistic sunday schools entirely irrelevant to the discussion

besides, since they appear not to be state-sanctioned atheistic sunday schools, i think they should be allowed

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You are raving – to suggest that the plight of thousands of abused kids and women is remotely similar to the religious education of Muslim children, or indeed, for that matter, any religious denomination, is a ludicrous notion.
it is a valid comparison... obviously, abused children is a more extreme example, but the theme it has in common is that people dismiss it because the victims dont complain

children are not in a position to complain about their religious indoctrination, nor are they aware enough that there is anything to complain about, so the absence of any objection from them is completely irrelevant

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And what about atheist schools, such as the one specified in the TIME magazine article above? Curious how you omit them.
i dont find it curious at all... you dont seem to be supporting atheist schools, so i dont see why he would argue against them in this discussion

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Well, practically speaking, it makes little difference; I don’t think many non-Muslim parents are going to send their children to a Muslim school, particularly when there are many other good schools, in the Catholic, Independent and State school sectors, around.
Flip. Flop.

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No, you see that is called defamation and libel. Holocaust denial is a crime in a number of European states, for example.
lmao... ok, who did i defame by saying religion is shit?? defamation has to be personal

also... how is holocaust denial defamation??

in my opinion, holocaust denial should not be illegal... sure the holocaust denier might be an asshole, but that doesnt mean we can take his freedom of speech... of course, that is for another discussion

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No one is forcing their way of life on unwilling subjects. If these children disagree with the Islamic religion 1) The Islamic religion states there should be no compulsion of religion. As Abdullah al’Naim, noted Islamic scholar, states, ‘If I do not have the freedom to disbelieve, I do not have the freedom to believe’. 2) The Australian Constitution provides for freedom of religion, including conversion, from as early as the age of 14 years.
but since they have been indoctrinated and brainwashed, they dont really have a choice

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Who says that Muslim schools will deny children the freedom of choice? No one is forcing them to stay there. If they don’t like it, they can go to another school. This is not like conscription, where you have to stay in the institution.
yes it is... if your parents send you to an Islamic school when you are 6, and you dont like it, what are you going to do about it??

dont be daft

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There is a difference between ‘forcefed’ and ‘educated’
that is the difference we are attempting to highlight

teaching facts as facts is called "education"

teaching religion as fact is called "forcefeeding"

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Such inciteful language as ‘bombard’ and ‘pressure’ does not facilitate a logical, civilised debate at all.
well, how is it inciteful?? id call it accurate... the kids are being pressured into the religion and bombarded with its propaganda

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
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(Posted as Konctre19)
Posts: 728/1971
(27-Dec-2007 at 02:21)


sorry for the double post... was longer than 15k characters

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a)
In case you didn’t notice it, how will you raise your children? Will you tell them, ‘believe what you want to believe’? More likely, your (obviously) religiously-lacking life will naturally bias your children against leaving a religious life as well. So you see, however your parents are, the children will follow their mould.
as far as i know, the majority of atheistic parents dont indoctrinate their kids in atheism... i know that my dad never sat me on his knee so he could tell me that "there is no god, and you must never listen to anyone who says there is"... my grandmother who is a devout christian often told me and my brother stories from the bible and stuff, and tried to make us religious, and my atheist parents never objected...

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b)
The point of parenting is to inculcate in your child your values. That is why parents should be wary of developing bad habits, such as smoking, which could impact not only on their health, but also on their moral upbringing. You, for example, believe that atheism/agnosticism is the correct path; your upbringing of your children will reflect this. I, as a Muslim, believe that Islam is the correct path; my interpretation of Islam will influence the upbringing of my children. In both instances, we are doing what we think is best for our children
its not about atheism/agnosticism being the "correct path" - not least of all because agnosticism isnt a path at all, it is absolute indecision, and i dont even know why you keep trying to compare it to religion... at least there is a comparison with atheism which is the opposite of religion

but anyway... most atheists believe (and i certainly believe) that the best way to bring up children is to teach them facts, and that's it... dont teach them religion, because it is not proven, but dont teach them against religion because religion isnt proven wrong either... just teach them facts, and dont object to religious influences on them as long as they arent overpowering, and then allow the kid to make an informed choice, free of any indoctrination

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
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Posts: 206/389
(27-Dec-2007 at 03:19)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by hussein: View Post
a)
In case you didn’t notice it, how will you raise your children? Will you tell them, ‘believe what you want to believe’? More likely, your (obviously) religiously-lacking life will naturally bias your children against leaving a religious life as well. So you see, however your parents are, the children will follow their mould.
My parents and their families were christian. I even went to a christian school. Yet me and my brother were raised to think for ourselfs. We were both brought up pretty much without religion at home. I think I didn't even seriously talk about religion with my parents till I was a teen. The thing is, children will believe anything. They aren't really conscious yet of life, humanity and everything beyond that. Even friends of mine that did have religious upbringing told me that religion never really had any meaning to them untill they were much older and started to question life issues for themselfs. I'd want my kids to figure out themselfs what they believe.
Originally Posted by hussein: View Post
b)
The point of parenting is to inculcate in your child your values. That is why parents should be wary of developing bad habits, such as smoking, which could impact not only on their health, but also on their moral upbringing. You, for example, believe that atheism/agnosticism is the correct path; your upbringing of your children will reflect this. I, as a Muslim, believe that Islam is the correct path; my interpretation of Islam will influence the upbringing of my children. In both instances, we are doing what we think is best for our children.
I disagree. While I'm doing my best, I'll never claim that my path is the correct path. I'd never claim that what I believe is the truth on a matter like this, certainly not to my children.
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(27-Dec-2007 at 06:35)


Quote:
i personally prefer qualified teachers... would you choose learning mathematics in a mosque to learning it in school??
This is in Bangladesh, a poor developing country which is not exactly renowned for offering a plethora of educational options. What difference does it make if the mathematics teachers teach the mathematics in a mosque or in a school?

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nothing... who said i support chapels at school?? dont put words in my mouth, im sick of you refuting arguments that i never made
Except I would like to see you argue removing every chapel that is affiliated with a school in the country, and then see if the Australian public agrees with you for protecting their interests against religious propaganda.

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no... i dont see why anyone should go out of their way to accomodate other religions... they should not actively interfere with it, but that does not mean they must actively make it easier to worship... that's YOUR responsibility
That’s right, it is our responsibility. We are very grateful to Sydney University for offering Islamic chaplaincy services, halal food and an area to pray. We achieve this ability to make it easier to worship through advocacy of Muslim interests, which these institutions kindly accommodate.

Oh yeah? Do you see any reason why people should go out of their way to accommodate disabled people? Or is that THEIR responsibility? And before you start pointing out that this is a ridiculous comparison, consider the comparison you made between abusing children and their religious education at schools.
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im not inhibiting it unless it is impossible to learn Islam out of school, and you have yet to establish how it is
I’m not arguing about Islamic education outside of school. I’m arguing about Islamic education inside of school. And I feel that it is inhibiting it, because you are denying Muslims the right to form religious schools if this is what they want. And it is not a state-sanctioned institution, it is a PREDOMINANTLY PRIVATELY-FUNDED, INDEPENDENT, INSTITUTION!

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ummm... kids start school at the age of 6, not 14
In the Islamic religion, people do not assume responsibility for their actions until they reach puberty or 15 years of age, whatever comes first.

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no they are not... (well, they are but they shouldnt be)... because they are choosing a school that should not have anything to do with the state (and if they fund it and condone it, they have something to do with it...) state should never sanction religion
Interesting…so you are saying that Muslim government employees should not be granted leave to go to Friday prayers, or Eid prayers, or some other sort of prayers, despite this being an important part of Islam? Or aren’t we supposed to be a progressive society where the needs of different religious groups are accommodated?

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private schools receive a LOT of government funding, they dont really save money at all

besides, the thread is not about private schools, but private schools that teach religion, so it doesnt matter anyway
But private schools is interminably intertwined with private schools that teach religion, because 89% of independent schools in Australia are religiously-affiliated, so it does matter.

Private schools receive less government funding than government schools, so they do save the government money. Even the former Education Minister has said as much.

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well it would, since people are obviously against it, and that would be another reason to throw shit at it, whether they want to send their kids there or not

but at any rate, werent you before saying that there would be so many non-Muslims that there would be no segregation anyway??

Flip. Flop.
The point is that the school is permitting the attendance of non-Muslim school students, who can’t be that much of an oppressive environment, can it?

Moreover, if no non-Muslim parents are going to send their children there, it shouldn’t be a concern for them should it? And as long as the Muslim school does not encroach on their lives, what cause would they have for complaints?

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you may have thought about it, but since you were raised as a Muslim there is really 0 probability that you would have chosen not to continue following Islam.
Really? Like Barack Obama (Muslim father, Muslim grandparent), Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

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so?? which school is that btw
That school is Newcastle Grammar School.

So? So the point you are making is that because I have been “bombarded” with Islam from all vantage points for 18 years, I have virtually no choice in the matter regarding my piety in the paradigm of Islam. Well, that is funny, given that I have attended Newcastle Grammar School, an independent, Anglican-affiliated coeducational school from 2002 to 2007, and it has been a major part of my life, particularly as I have been a House Vice-Captain, Prefect, member of the Senior Choir and the Senior String Orchestra, done Lions Youth of the Year Quest and committed myself to my studies.

So I think I have had a pretty pluralistic and progressive upbringing.

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most consider Islam to be an Arab religion... so yes, it is for all intents and purposes an Arab religion... but either way, its not a western religion
No, just because most people consider Islam to be an Arab religion, does not mean it is an Arab religion. Just because the majority thinks so, does not mean it is correct. It is not a Western religion? What about the 6 million Muslims who live in America? Or are they not Americans (hence Westerners?) Islam is an international religion, whose adherents form the majority population in 57 countries. The very fact that the two countries with the largest Muslim populations (Indonesia, in South East Asia, followed by India in South Asia) indicates that Islam is not an Arab religion.

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...of a tiny portion of the population
Like a minority of Australia actually practise Christianity actively.

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One. He's from america with algerian heritage.

there's also this guy from india, but he's more of an acquaintance i guess

and i knew this guy in high school a year below me from pakistan

none were segregated, but the important recurring theme is none went to a Muslim school, and therefore weren't put in a segregated environment
And what would these friends/acquaintances of yours think if you put these religious views you are proposing in Utopia Temple, to them?

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nobody needs to ask... everybody cares about my musical opinions
Unfortunately for you, I don’t.

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you are one person
Funny…so are you.

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just because they dont hate australia doesnt mean they arent segregated
Interesting…if they like Australia, it must mean that they can’t be all that segregated from Australia, can it? Particularly since Australia is such a beautiful country, so they obviously are bang on, so obviously they must have integrated to some degree or another.

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yes, but i know that, and i dont have to study the religion in detail in order to know that
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You had to study the religion though. Tony Blair read the Qur’an during his tenure as Prime Minister of Britain, and it seems to have helped me in his more worldly affairs, evidently, as he is now, in his post-Prime Minister years, the Middle East peace envoy.
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i dont have a deficient education... i know most of what i need to know about Islam... i may study more out of interest, but im pretty sure you cant tell me anything that i benefit from knowing about Islam that i dont already know
If you needed to actively work with Muslims in an inter-faith council to promote more harmonious community relations, a working knowledge of Islam would be useful.

So you see just because your knowledge of Islam is basic does not mean that an in-depth knowledge of Islam is useful beyond its ecclesiastical worth.

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i have a multicultural outlook... you still havent told me what is so multicultural about state-sanctioning of religious indoctrination
Definition of ‘multicultural’.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or including several cultures.
2. Of or relating to a social or educational theory that encourages interest in many cultures within a society rather than in only a mainstream culture.

So you see, we cannot encourage interest in many cultures within a society if we are only interested in a ‘mainstream culture’ (which is facilitated through your ideal of a secular, state school) if we close down every Jewish school, Muslim school, Hindu school, Seventh Day Adventist school…in the country.

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in what way?? if i care about someone's spiritual outlook - and i rarely do - i just ask
Just because you rarely do, doesn’t mean others don’t.

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no its not... it is not important at all... why do i need to learn about what some other n00bs believe?? i might be slightly interested, but even then I DONT NEED TO BE INDOCTRINATED IN THE RELIGION TO BENEFIT

not to mention i highly doubt that statistic, and if anything it is decreasingly important, since religion is on the decline
Religion is on the decline? Interesting, isn’t is Islam that is the fastest-growing religion in Australia, America and the Western world. Interesting, isn’t piety in the Islamic religion growing? Interesting, didn’t the renowned The Economist say that religion will play an integral role in the 21st century’s world affairs? Interesting, doesn’t the Pope still command the authority of 1 billion Catholics? Interesting, the most powerful man in the world is still sworn in with the Bible on Inauguration Day (20 January). Interesting, aren’t 89% of independent schools in Australia religiously affiliated? Forgive me if I don’t believe you when you say that religion is on the decline.

2.1 billion Christians, all of whom you believe are noobs? Hmm, interesting. 1.5billion Muslims, all of whom you believe are noobs? Hmm, interesting. 900 million Hindus, all of whom you believe are noobs? Hmm, interesting.

So you see, to me you appear highly aroogant, since you believe the majority of the world’s people are noobs and hence morons, whose spiritual outlook on the life is not important enough for you to deign interest in.

You don’t need to be indoctrinated in the religion to benefit. You see, no one is FORCING YOU TO ATTEND AN ISLAMIC SCHOOL.

JEWS CAN ATTEND A JEWISH SCHOOL IF THEY WANT.

CHRISTIANS CAN ATTEND A CHRISTIAN SCHOOL IF THEY WANT.

MUSLIMS CAN ATTEND A MUSLIM SCHOOL IF THEY WANT.

YOU CAN ATTEND A SECULAR, NON-DENOMINATIONAL SCHOOL IF YOU WANT, which, if it is based on a good education syllabus, will teach you well on the major religions on the world to give you an all-rounded, holistic education.

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i really dont need to know about Islam to understand the afghanistan invasion... i only need to know that they are devout muslims, and that communism is an anti-religious ideology, and they clashed... besides, i'd say a more important cause of the mujahideen striking back is that their country was invaded, not that it was invaded by atheists
Given that the Soviet invasion of 1979 into Afghanistan gave rise to the religious terrorist network Al-Qaeda, and become a holy war for Afghans and Muslims worldwide against the infidel atheist Soviet invader, I think understanding the concepts of monotheism and jihad in Islam would be very important in understanding this crucial part of the Cold War and the end of the détente period.

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what inherent benefits??
Broadened outlook on life.

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because it is... "the majority agrees with me" is understood by most debaters to be an invalid argument... each position should be judged on its own merits, and not how many people agree with it
Unfortunately, how many people agree with it can be rather important. If a large number of people in Australia agree with me on whether there should be religiously-affiliated schools in Australia (and a fair few must do, given that 89% of independent schools in Australia are religiously affiliated) that is a compelling argument.

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obviously there is more to religion than "god created the universe", but the point is religion is dogmatic by nature, while history class is meant to encourage critical thinking
And religion doesn’t? A documentary I saw on an Islamic school in America showed a teacher asking ‘Why do Muslims not engage in pre-marital sex?’ To me, this encourages critical thinking more than if the teacher were simply to say ‘Fornication is wrong. Never do it. End of story.’

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"...if you fund it yourself and dont associate it with the state by teaching our curriculum in the same institution"
Ahh, but they do fund it their selves. And oh yeah, every child from 5 to 16 years of age has to learn the same curriculum, so no one is ‘associating’ anything. They are not intertwining the teaching of Islam in the paradigm of the school with the NSW curriculum. They are just teaching them at the one school (makes it easier than sending your child to the mosque on Wednesday afternoon or Saturday morning, which can be impractical for many).

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
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(27-Dec-2007 at 07:27)


Quote:
NO. READ MY FUCKING ARGUMENTS AND REFUTE THEM. IF YOU DONT, STOP REPEATING THIS SHIT.
Funny.

Let’s look at how Wikipedia defines Christmas and Easter.

Christmas is an annual holiday that celebrates the birth of Jesus. It refers both to the day celebrating the birth, as well as to the season which that day inaugurates, which concludes with the Feast of the Epiphany. The date of the celebration is traditional, and is not considered to be his actual date of birth. Christmas festivities often combine the commemoration of Jesus' birth with various cultural customs, many of which have been influenced by earlier winter festivals.

Easter, Pascha, or Resurrection Day, is an important religious feast in the Christian liturgical year. It celebrates the resurrection of Jesus, which Christians believe occurred on the third day after his crucifixion some time in the period AD 27 to 33.

Oh how, my gosh. Both holidays are religious in nature. And guess what? Both are official holidays, as accorded their status by the Australian government.

So, no matter how you try to reason or evade your way out of it, the fact is that two religious holidays have been accorded official status by the government – something which you have stated is anathema to you.

So, what, exactly, is your position? Please clarify it.

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it is a valid comparison... obviously, abused children is a more extreme example, but the theme it has in common is that people dismiss it because the victims dont complain

children are not in a position to complain about their religious indoctrination, nor are they aware enough that there is anything to complain about, so the absence of any objection from them is completely irrelevant
Interesting…the abused children have mechanisms by which they can complain…it’s called the police and the courts. Do you know why? Because it is a REAL PROBLEM, not this make-believe problem of religious indoctrination you are conjuring from some phantasm of your imagination.

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i dont find it curious at all... you dont seem to be supporting atheist schools, so i dont see why he would argue against them in this discussion
But they’re valid, because you seem to be arguing against ‘religious indoctrination’, which is a major problem in your opinion. What about ‘non-religious indoctrination’? Or doesn’t that register on your radar?

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lmao... ok, who did i defame by saying religion is shit?? defamation has to be personal

also... how is holocaust denial defamation??

in my opinion, holocaust denial should not be illegal... sure the holocaust denier might be an asshole, but that doesnt mean we can take his freedom of speech... of course, that is for another discussion
Interesting…these European states seem to disagree with you. And libel and defamation cross over into the arena of freedom of speech, so they are very relevant in contradicting what you are saying. It suggests that you cannot simply say ‘Lisa is a slut, a hooker, a crook’ when she is actually none of these things, because then she could sue for defamation. However, you, in your defence of ‘freedom of speech’, are implying that someone would be fully entitled in manufacturing such unsubstantiated accusations.

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but since they have been indoctrinated and brainwashed, they dont really have a choice
Interesting…isn’t brainwashing illegal? Curious that the Australian government hasn’t banned religiously-affiliated education yet, as it falls under your classification of 'brain-washing'. More interesting indeed, that it is actually booming, that 89% of independent schools in Australia are religiously-affiliated.

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yes it is... if your parents send you to an Islamic school when you are 6, and you dont like it, what are you going to do about it??
And how much will 6 year olds understand about the deeper issues regarding religion? Or haven’t you met 6 year olds recently? They’re more concerned with the next episode of ‘Dora the Explorer’ or playing with their Barbie dolls, than over the existence/non-existence of God. So I think religious education at six years wouldn't exactly be that important at that stage.

Don’t be daft.

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that is the difference we are attempting to highlight

teaching facts as facts is called "education"

teaching religion as fact is called "forcefeeding"
Interesting. In Islam, those who are financially able are obliged to give 2.5% or more of their income to charitable sources. This is known as ‘zakat’.

Is this forcefeeding or education, in your esteemed opinion?

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well, how is it inciteful?? id call it accurate... the kids are being pressured into the religion and bombarded with its propaganda
I suppose they are being whipped if they don’t pray, or burnt with fire if they don’t fast during the month of Ramadan?

No compulsion of religion, remember, no compulsion of religion. ‘Pressured’, and ‘no compulsion’ are direct opposites, so really, I’m afraid you’re wrong on this point.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
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(27-Dec-2007 at 07:30)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by Konctre19: View Post
sorry for the double post... was longer than 15k characters



as far as i know, the majority of atheistic parents dont indoctrinate their kids in atheism... i know that my dad never sat me on his knee so he could tell me that "there is no god, and you must never listen to anyone who says there is"... my grandmother who is a devout christian often told me and my brother stories from the bible and stuff, and tried to make us religious, and my atheist parents never objected...



its not about atheism/agnosticism being the "correct path" - not least of all because agnosticism isnt a path at all, it is absolute indecision, and i dont even know why you keep trying to compare it to religion... at least there is a comparison with atheism which is the opposite of religion

but anyway... most atheists believe (and i certainly believe) that the best way to bring up children is to teach them facts, and that's it... dont teach them religion, because it is not proven, but dont teach them against religion because religion isnt proven wrong either... just teach them facts, and dont object to religious influences on them as long as they arent overpowering, and then allow the kid to make an informed choice, free of any indoctrination
Article from TIME magazine
Wednesday, Nov. 21, 2007


On Sunday mornings, most parents who don't believe in the Christian God, or any god at all, are probably making brunch or cheering at their kids' soccer game, or running errands or, with luck, sleeping in. Without religion, there's no need for church, right?

Maybe. But some nonbelievers are beginning to think they might need something for their children. "When you have kids," says Julie Willey, a design engineer, "you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on." So every week, Willey, who was raised Buddhist and says she has never believed in God, and her husband pack their four kids into their blue minivan and head to the Humanist Community Center in Palo Alto, Calif., for atheist Sunday school.

An estimated 14% of Americans profess to have no religion, and among 18-to-25-year-olds, the proportion rises to 20%, according to the Institute for Humanist Studies. The lives of these young people would be much easier, adult nonbelievers say, if they learned at an early age how to respond to the God-fearing majority in the U.S. "It's important for kids not to look weird," says Peter Bishop, who leads the preteen class at the Humanist center in Palo Alto. Others say the weekly instruction supports their position that it's O.K. to not believe in God and gives them a place to reinforce the morals and values they want their children to have.

The pioneering Palo Alto program began three years ago, and like-minded communities in Phoenix, Albuquerque, N.M., and Portland, Ore., plan to start similar classes next spring. The growing movement of institutions for kids in atheist families also includes Camp Quest, a group of sleep-away summer camps in five states plus Ontario, and the Carl Sagan Academy in Tampa, Fla., the country's first Humanism-influenced public charter school, which opened with 55 kids in the fall of 2005. Bri Kneisley, who sent her son Damian, 10, to Camp Quest Ohio this past summer, welcomes the sense of community these new choices offer him: "He's a child of atheist parents, and he's not the only one in the world."

Kneisley, 26, a graduate student at the University of Missouri, says she realized Damian needed to learn about secularism after a neighbor showed him the Bible. "Damian was quite certain this guy was right and was telling him this amazing truth that I had never shared," says Kneisley. In most ways a traditional sleep-away camp--her son loved canoeing--Camp Quest also taught Damian critical thinking, world religions and tales of famous freethinkers (an umbrella term for atheists, agnostics and other rationalists) like the black abolitionist Frederick Douglass.

The Palo Alto Sunday family program uses music, art and discussion to encourage personal expression, intellectual curiosity and collaboration. One Sunday this fall found a dozen children up to age 6 and several parents playing percussion instruments and singing empowering anthems like I'm Unique and Unrepeatable, set to the tune of Ten Little Indians, instead of traditional Sunday-school songs like Jesus Loves Me. Rather than listen to a Bible story, the class read Stone Soup, a secular parable of a traveler who feeds a village by making a stew using one ingredient from each home.

Down the hall in the kitchen, older kids engaged in a Socratic conversation with class leader Bishop about the role persuasion plays in decision-making. He tried to get them to see that people who are coerced into renouncing their beliefs might not actually change their minds but could be acting out of self-preservation--an important lesson for young atheists who may feel pressure to say they believe in God.

Atheist parents appreciate this nurturing environment. That's why Kitty, a nonbeliever who didn't want her last name used to protect her kids' privacy, brings them to Bishop's class each week. After Jonathan, 13, and Hana, 11, were born, Kitty says she felt socially isolated and even tried taking them to church. But they're all much more comfortable having rational discussions at the Humanist center. "I'm a person that doesn't believe in myths," Hana says. "I'd rather stick to the evidence."

Click to Print Find this article at:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...686828,00.html

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
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(27-Dec-2007 at 07:34)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Quote:
While I'm doing my best, I'll never claim that my path is the correct path.While I'm doing my best, I'll never claim that my path is the correct path.
If you don't think your path in life isn't correct, why are you leading your life this way? Moreover, if you think you are leading the best possible path in life, why are you not passing this on to your children. After all, this is what parents are supposed to do. Pass on their morals and values to their children.

P.S. Sorry about the 4 consecutive posts. Had a lot to reply to, as you can see.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
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(27-Dec-2007 at 08:18)


Quote:
Again, the article was written by TIME magazine, so if you have a particular issue with its contents, perhaps you should talk to them, not me. Moreover, the Islamic school in question is based in Australia
Doesn't matter. It's still important to clarify just where this is hapening

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You are raving – to suggest that the plight of thousands of abused kids and women is remotely similar to the religious education of Muslim children, or indeed, for that matter, any religious denomination, is a ludicrous notion.
As i said this is a exaggerated comparsion meant to make fun of your logic that as long as they are not complaining there is no problem

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And what about atheist schools, such as the one specified in the TIME magazine article above? Curious how you omit them.
Because they are small and insignificant and don't really matter. Well except to people like you. But if someones wants to push whatever ideology be that racist,athetistic,islamic or whatever in school then i am against it
However Sunday Schools,Church visits,religous camps. Well we can't really do anything more when it comes to them then we can interefere in the home. That's why regular school not thisnsunday crap is important to me. Since this is where we just might stand a chance of giving the kids some freedom from whatver ideologies or religions their parents are trying to push them into

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Well, practically speaking, it makes little difference; I don’t think many non-Muslim parents are going to send their children to a Muslim school, particularly when there are many other good schools, in the Catholic, Independent and State school sectors, around.
It makes a huge difference PR wise

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Why?
You are wondering why i call the "I am right you are wrong way" of thinking juvenile?

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No, you see that is called defamation and libel. Holocaust denial is a crime in a number of European states, for example.
Nope you can insult any religion you want in quite a few countries. In fact in most western countries. Only when it comes to calling for violence does it become leglaly tricky.
And it's illegal to deny great crimes like the Holocaust and Armenian Genocide(curious hwo you omit this ) only in few countries

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No one is forcing their way of life on unwilling subjects.
Actually they do. Children are esentially children. When you bombard them with extreme religous propganda from very early age they don't really have a choice. That's why i wanna give them some peace and quiet at school . Well as much peace and quiet as you can have in school

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Who says that Muslim schools will deny children the freedom of choice?
Reality. And you yourself are a great example

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There is a difference between ‘forcefed’ and ‘educated’.
Yes you educate them about religion in things like world religion class and later on when they are adult they can go to university and study religion more in depth. You forcefed them religion in home,church or a temple of your chosing and at religous school. Nothing can be done about home or chruch but something can be done about school

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Such inciteful language as ‘bombard’ and ‘pressure’ does not facilitate a logical, civilised debate at all.
Yes it does.

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Wrong. I want to educate my kids in Islam from the earliest possible age. Yes, Islam tells me to spread it.
Thank you for proving my points

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In case you didn’t notice it, how will you raise your children? Will you tell them, ‘believe what you want to believe’?
Yeah pretty much

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More likely, your (obviously) religiously-lacking life will naturally bias your children against leaving a religious life as well. So you see, however your parents are, the children will follow their mould.
No not really. I don't really care much about religion but i am very interested in various cultures and history since this is what i study and i naturally share the semi religous cultural traditions of my society so my children will have a large source of cultures to influence them
And it's not about children following in their parents footsteps it's about parents bombarding them with their ideology from earliest possible age and continuing this in school

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The point of parenting is to inculcate in your child your values
Well for once we agree

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You, for example, believe that atheism/agnosticism is the correct path; your upbringing of your children will reflect this
Where did you get that crazy idea? Atheism,agnosticism is not a value system it's just what you chose to believe once you are an adult. There is no real path .If i ever have children i will try to teach them simple human values that will keep them out of trouble and try to treat them according to their needs. They can discover religion by themselves

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, as a Muslim, believe that Islam is the correct path; my interpretation of Islam will influence the upbringing of my children. In both instances, we are doing what we think is best for our children.
However unlike you i would let my child decide for itself about something as important and as life changing as religion


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If you don't think your path in life isn't correct, why are you leading your life this way?
I imagine because he is not arrogant enough to believe that he has discovered the best posible truth and is following the only correct path

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Article from TIME magazine
Wednesday, Nov. 21, 2007
Why are you so obsesed with this article hussein? I mean it's not exactly hard to find a few crazies in every group. And unlike muslims atheists are not a community. They share about as much with each other as the people who's favourite colour is blue or who liked Pulp Fiction
And even if there was something as silly as an atheistic community a project that started only three years ago and who's biggest school is composed of 55 people is not a really impresive example. I mean i am sure i can find a lot more then the a few hundred muslims who suport and practice female circumcision(hey more original then suicide bombings right?). Does this speak about all of the muslim community?

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 27-Dec-2007 at 08:23.
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(27-Dec-2007 at 13:23)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by hussein: View Post
If you don't think your path in life isn't correct, why are you leading your life this way?
I'm not a god, I'm not all knowing. It would be silly to think that I know everything. I lead my life the way I want to lead it. What's right and wrong is mostly subjective.
Originally Posted by hussein: View Post
Moreover, if you think you are leading the best possible path in life, why are you not passing this on to your children. After all, this is what parents are supposed to do. Pass on their morals and values to their children.
I don't think I'm leading the best possible path in life, I simply don't know if I am. I'm not claiming I have all the answers. I'd want my children to develop their own morals and values, not to blindly copy mine.
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(27-Dec-2007 at 21:23)


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As i said this is a exaggerated comparsion meant to make fun of your logic that as long as they are not complaining there is no problem
Funny…so people have no complaints, that indicates there must always be an underlying problem, or they are hiding something. Funny, I usually take this at face value, without making up new problems. The world has enough problems to resolve, without conjuring new ones.

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Because they are small and insignificant and don't really matter.
Funny…it was in TIME magazine, so it must matter to some degree.

It makes a huge difference PR wise

Because Islamic schools in general, whether proposed in Bass Hill, Camden or Bankstown, in Sydney, Australia, have been getting great PR, haven’t they?

Nope you can insult any religion you want in quite a few countries. In fact in most western countries. Only when it comes to calling for violence does it become leglaly tricky.
And it's illegal to deny great crimes like the Holocaust and Armenian Genocide(curious hwo you omit this ) only in few countries


Funny…I don’t think many people will be freely replicating, without fear or hindrance, the Danish cartoons, anytime soon.

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Actually they do. Children are esentially children. When you bombard them with extreme religous propganda from very early age they don't really have a choice. That's why i wanna give them some peace and quiet at school . Well as much peace and quiet as you can have in school
That’s right. Parents are responsible for their welfare and must have their best interests at heart.

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Yes you educate them about religion in things like world religion class and later on when they are adult they can go to university and study religion more in depth. You forcefed them religion in home,church or a temple of your chosing and at religous school. Nothing can be done about home or chruch but something can be done about school
Maybe you want to close down every temple, synagogue, church, mosque in the country, like Stalin did…to avoid religious bombardment. Then abolish religion like Karl Marx, perhaps?

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Yeah pretty much
Right, when your 13-year-old daughter starts thinking about sex, you won’t impose your values, you’ll just say, ‘Go right ahead! Do what makes you feel good!’

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No not really. I don't really care much about religion but i am very interested in various cultures and history since this is what i study and i naturally share the semi religous cultural traditions of my society so my children will have a large source of cultures to influence them
And it's not about children following in their parents footsteps it's about parents bombarding them with their ideology from earliest possible age and continuing this in school
And you think your children will suddenly decide to become Orthodox Jews, just because you happened to read a few books and watch a few documentaries on Orthodox Judaism?

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Where did you get that crazy idea? Atheism,agnosticism is not a value system it's just what you chose to believe once you are an adult. There is no real path .If i ever have children i will try to teach them simple human values that will keep them out of trouble and try to treat them according to their needs. They can discover religion by themselves
Interesting….the TIME magazine article I published earlier in this forum would suggest otherwise.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
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Funny…so people have no complaints, that indicates there must always be an underlying problem, or they are hiding something. Funny, I usually take this at face value, without making up new problems. The world has enough problems to resolve, without conjuring new ones.
Funny how you always think in extremes. When have i said always? But family and peer pressure is a serious problem everywhere. When you add something as overwhelming as religion a kid can have a very tough time

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Funny…it was in TIME magazine, so it must matter to some degree.
Not really. I imagine Paris Hilton was also in some issue of Time magazine.It publishes a wide slection of topics and curioisities

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Because Islamic schools in general, whether proposed in Bass Hill, Camden or Bankstown, in Sydney, Australia, have been getting great PR, haven’t they?
I imagine not. And i also imagine they would rather keep it from getting even wrose. As of now they can be seen as victims of religous discrimnation. if they ban non muslim they won't have any sympathy

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Funny…I don’t think many people will be freely replicating, without fear or hindrance, the Danish cartoons, anytime soon.
On the contrary. We are still very much capable of doing this . A few violent fanatics can't defeat freedom of speech. In fact i can post one right here if you like. I am not sure if this the accurate one since it was a long time ago but i think it'll do


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That’s right. Parents are responsible for their welfare and must have their best interests at heart.
Exactly. But a parent obsesed by his ideology doesn't always know what is best for their children . That's why society must take care of them in the only case where we really can . In school.

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Maybe you want to close down every temple, synagogue, church, mosque in the country, like Stalin did…to avoid religious bombardment. Then abolish religion like Karl Marx, perhaps?
Oh now we go to the Stalin comparsions. How cute. When we lack a good argument just compare your oponent with a scary historical figure.
And i arleady said what i want. But hey keep trying to twist my words

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Right, when your 13-year-old daughter starts thinking about sex, you won’t impose your values, you’ll just say, ‘Go right ahead! Do what makes you feel good!’
There is a difference between action and belief. For example. If my child hates america and americans i would debate it's points and try to understand it but i will defintly forbid it to commit a suicide bombing on a McDonalds

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And you think your children will suddenly decide to become Orthodox Jews, just because you happened to read a few books and watch a few documentaries on Orthodox Judaism?
No realisticly i think my children will mostly be consumed by mass culture but i hope that they might also get inspiration from the wisdom of world religions and cultures and build their own worldview

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Interesting….the TIME magazine article I published earlier in this forum would suggest otherwise
As i already said

Why are you so obsesed with this article hussein? I mean it's not exactly hard to find a few crazies in every group. And unlike muslims atheists are not a community. They share about as much with each other as the people who's favourite colour is blue or who liked Pulp Fiction
And even if there was something as silly as an atheistic community a project that started only three years ago and who's biggest school is composed of 55 people is not a really impresive example. I mean i am sure i can find a lot more then the a few hundred muslims who suport and practice female circumcision(hey more original then suicide bombings right?). Does this speak about all of the muslim community?
Attached Images
File Type: gif 05.05.18.Bibliocide-X.gif (40.7 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg cartoon2.jpg (12.2 KB, 7 views)

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 28-Dec-2007 at 10:10.
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(28-Dec-2007 at 11:41)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by hussein: View Post
Interesting….the TIME magazine article I published earlier in this forum would suggest otherwise.
Not really, atheism isn't the same as humanism.
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(28-Dec-2007 at 20:36)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

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Funny how you always think in extremes. When have i said always? But family and peer pressure is a serious problem everywhere. When you add something as overwhelming as religion a kid can have a very tough time
If a kid is being forced a religion contrary to what they want, I would agree with you. However, this education in school only complements, indeed enhances, how Islam affects their everyday life.

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Not really. I imagine Paris Hilton was also in some issue of Time magazine.It publishes a wide slection of topics and curioisities
Paris Hilton makes headlines in a contemporary context, with 51.6 million hits on Google. The fact that she is now probably penniless (and now a major claim to her fame – as heir to the Hilton hotel empire is now void) and has done some reprehensible things, does not mean that she hasn't been seared onto the consciousness of every person in America. To omit her from TIME just because of these things would be sore failing on the magazine’s part - the magazine catalogues the major contemporary figures in our age, after all, for good (like interviewing Lee Kuan Yew) or evil (OK, sex tapes don't necessarily make Paris Hiltonevil, but she certainly isn't the Archbishop of Canterbury).

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I imagine not. And i also imagine they would rather keep it from getting even wrose. As of now they can be seen as victims of religous discrimnation. if they ban non muslim they won't have any sympathy
Religious discrimination which is being masqueraded behind claims that there are no Muslims in Camden (actually, there are 100 Muslim families in Camden), that such a school would promote segregation and sectarian divisions, creation of traffic problems, excessive water usage (despite the fact that only of the five Islamic prayers coincides with the school day) and Muslims do not integrate, and as such should work within the state school system, despite the fact that 30% of students in New South Wales, Australia, go to state schools, a large percentage also go to Catholic schools and 89% of independent schools in Australia are religiously affiliated.

As I see it, Muslims get so much bad press from these school developments that those citing religious bigotry are not nearly as voluble as those who are opposing the development on the above-cited grounds.

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Exactly. But a parent obsesed by his ideology doesn't always know what is best for their children . That's why society must take care of them in the only case where we really can . In school.
What is ‘society’? As far as I see it, ‘society’ comprises all the diverse elements (except in a theocracy like Saudi Arabia, where everyone has to be Muslim, and you wouldn’t dare wear a bikini lest you incur the wrath of the much-despised religious police) – religious and non-religious. Moreover, to describe a religious parent as ‘obsessed by his ideology’ is erroneous. When parents have children, parents are entrusted with the sacred duty of raising those children, except in certain circumstances, for example, like if they physically or sexually abuse the child, or kill someone. This ‘duty’, so to say, extends to both religious and non-religious people.

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Oh now we go to the Stalin comparsions. How cute. When we lack a good argument just compare your oponent with a scary historical figure.
And i arleady said what i want. But hey keep trying to twist my words
Well, sorry, who is talking about ‘religious bombardment’ like Karl Marx would have empathised with these sentiments? I am not comparing you to Stalin. Stalin’s murder of 20 million of his own people, his own disregard for the lives of the people who futilely died in defending Stalingrad during WWII just because it bore his name, and his own vanity in establishing his ‘personality cult’, means that he should burn in every hell that exists for all eternity. I am sure that you are a very good person in everyday life. However, your attempt to vilify religious education in this manner is somewhat reminiscent of Stalin’s anti-religious streak. After all, no religious person, I do not think, would support what you are suggesting – the abandonment of religious education within the school system. After all, religious institutions must get licences from the state to operate - is that then, the state sanctioning religion, and hence anathema?

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No realisticly i think my children will mostly be consumed by mass culture but i hope that they might also get inspiration from the wisdom of world religions and cultures and build their own worldview
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But earlier you were arguing that your children would be free to choose their own path…because that would be how you raise them. Yet, forgive me, the likeliness that they will choose a religious like Orthodox Judaism based on the manner you raise them is very remote, in my opinion.
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As i already said

Why are you so obsesed with this article hussein? I mean it's not exactly hard to find a few crazies in every group. And unlike muslims atheists are not a community. They share about as much with each other as the people who's favourite colour is blue or who liked Pulp Fiction
And even if there was something as silly as an atheistic community a project that started only three years ago and who's biggest school is composed of 55people is not a really impresive example. I mean i am sure i can find a lot more then the a few hundred muslims who suport and practice female circumcision(hey more original then suicide bombings right?). Does this speak about all of the muslim community?
You think Muslims are always unified as a community. What do you think the sectarian fighting in Iraq has been about. A large part of it has been fighting between Sunni and Shi’ite – the two main denominations of Islam. Atheists are not a community? Maybe so. But what about the other thread in ‘Religious Discussions’ entitled ‘Atheist Alliance Conference’?

Definition of Alliance:
a merging of efforts or interests by persons, families, states, or organizations: an alliance between church and state.

Definition of Community:
a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists (usually prec. by the): the business community; the community of scholars.

Strange, these definitions look strangely similar.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
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Quote:
If a kid is being forced a religion contrary to what they want, I would agree with you. However, this education in school only complements, indeed enhances, how Islam affects their everyday life
And that's what it shouldn't do. Kids should have a break from their home envrioment in school. Especially if their home envrioment is overwhelmingly religous or ideological. School should be as much neutral ground as possible when it comes to ideologies and religions

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Paris Hilton makes headlines in a contemporary context, with 51.6 million hits on Google. The fact that she is now probably penniless (and now a major claim to her fame – as heir to the Hilton hotel empire is now void) and has done some reprehensible things, does not mean that she hasn't been seared onto the consciousness of every person in America. To omit her from TIME just because of these things would be sore failing on the magazine’s part - the magazine catalogues the major contemporary figures in our age, after all, for good (like interviewing Lee Kuan Yew) or evil (OK, sex tapes don't necessarily make Paris Hiltonevil, but she certainly isn't the Archbishop of Canterbury).
I didn't really need Paris Hilton's lfiife story altough i know you do love to flood us with well know information. The point was this just because it's in TIME doesn't mean it's important or that widespread(as evident from the article itself)it could mean that it's simply something curious


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Religious discrimination which is being masqueraded behind claims that there are no Muslims in Camden (actually, there are 100 Muslim families in Camden), that such a school would promote segregation and sectarian divisions, creation of traffic problems, excessive water usage (despite the fact that only of the five Islamic prayers coincides with the school day) and Muslims do not integrate, and as such should work within the state school system, despite the fact that 30% of students in New South Wales, Australia, go to state schools, a large percentage also go to Catholic schools and 89% of independent schools in Australia are religiously affiliated.

As I see it, Muslims get so much bad press from these school developments that those citing religious bigotry are not nearly as voluble as those who are opposing the development on the above-cited grounds.
Well thank you sharing all this. But the point is this. If they ban non muslims children they risk not only legal batlles but also incredibly bad pr which migh undermine their suport in the non muslim community and even part of the muslim community. So allowing non muslim children is school is not really noble or proigressive but simply logical and practical. What is so hard to understand about this?


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Moreover, to describe a religious parent as ‘obsessed by his ideology’ is erroneous
Actually it's completly accurate. especially with you.You are as bad as those fundametlsit christian in USA. It's almsot creepy


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When parents have children, parents are entrusted with the sacred duty of raising those children, except in certain circumstances, for example, like if they physically or sexually abuse the child, or kill someone. This ‘duty’, so to say, extends to both religious and non-religious people.
And this duty remains at home and in everyday life however unless you want to home school your children ,the parents views and ideologically shouldn't be transfered to school. Thats' why i am very much against relgious schools

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Well, sorry, who is talking about ‘religious bombardment’ like Karl Marx would have empathised with these sentiments?
Oh wow. I said the same thing as Marx. Oh ok Osama. I mean hey he said the words Islam is a good thing as well right? Man you are silly. I really hope all this bull is just meant to derail the topic or you are just trying to show you have elementary historical knowledge and you don't actually mean it seriously
And yes religous bombardment is an entirely accurate term for people like you.

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However, your attempt to vilify religious education in this manner is somewhat reminiscent of Stalin’s anti-religious streak.
What i am attempting is to seperate religioon from school i have yet to actually try vilify it altough that's quite easy with most religions .

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After all, no religious person, I do not think, would support what you are suggesting – the abandonment of religious education within the school system
You think wrong. Religion does not equal fantism. Plenty of religous people are just content with sending their children to a normal school . And why do you cosntantly try twist my words and lie about what i am saying. How is insisting that we have a world religion class with no religion coming on top an abandonment of religious education within the school ?

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After all, religious institutions must get licences from the state to operate - is that then, the state sanctioning religion, and hence anathema?
You are a really weird person. Just because you think in extremes doesn't mean that the rest of us are like you

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But earlier you were arguing that your children would be free to choose their own path…because that would be how you raise them. Yet, forgive me, the likeliness that they will choose a religious like Orthodox Judaism based on the manner you raise them is very remote, in my opinion.
Of course. Judaism is a hard religion to get into especially if you have absolutely no contact with it like me. They have about the same chance to get into Shinto .And so what ? They would still have the choice. If they find some truths in it or like the way it might enrich their life they are free to chose it. You know if you actually have some real points and want to to say something cut the foreplay and just say it

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You think Muslims are always unified as a community
Comapred to atheists or say yellow hating people yes

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Atheists are not a community? Maybe so. But what about the other thread in ‘Religious Discussions’ entitled ‘Atheist Alliance Conference’?
I imagine there is an alliance of people who hate the colour yellow somewhere as well . That doesn't not make them representatives of anybody

Again you keep trying to genralise a whole group of people and a group of people that shares barely nothingby the acts of a very few people. In this case some militant athetists. I am very surprised a muslim of all people would try to do this.


But you know what.Let's get back to the actual topic. If you want to argue about atheists let's see you start a new thread trying to prove your points about them . It would be hilarious to see you try. And it would be fun to see the answers of actual atheists as well

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 29-Dec-2007 at 08:45.
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(30-Dec-2007 at 05:18)


Quote:
And that's what it shouldn't do. Kids should have a break from their home envrioment in school. Especially if their home envrioment is overwhelmingly religous or ideological. School should be as much neutral ground as possible when it comes to ideologies and religions
Wherever did you get the idea that children need a ‘break from their home environment’ by going to school? I would be very worried if the home environment wasn’t ideological. If the home environment wasn’t ideological, what exactly are the parents inculcating in their children? As I see it, education in schools, whether secular or religious, is supposed to produce certain outcomes in terms of civics and values, so to suggest that ‘school should be as much neutral ground as possible’ is quite a ridiculous suggestion. Moreover, what will we do next? Ban the singing of the national anthem, so kids can decide which country they will pledge their allegiance to, not blindly subscribe to a country whose values (perhaps America’s) they do not agree with (given you cannot control which country you were born in?)?

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I didn't really need Paris Hilton's lfiife story altough i know you do love to flood us with well know information. The point was this just because it's in TIME doesn't mean it's important or that widespread(as evident from the article itself)it could mean that it's simply something curious
TIME wouldn’t waste our time if it was simply ‘curious’. They inform us on contemporary and relevant stuff. That is why TIME has the reputation it does.

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Well thank you sharing all this. But the point is this. If they ban non muslims children they risk not only legal batlles but also incredibly bad pr which migh undermine their suport in the non muslim community and even part of the muslim community. So allowing non muslim children is school is not really noble or proigressive but simply logical and practical. What is so hard to understand about this?
Logical and practical? How? The school in question will be very Islamic in emphasis. It would be like sending a Hindu to Sunday school. Moreover, which non-Muslims do you think will send their children to a school such as this? Because as I understand it, the proposals against the Camden Muslim school overwhelmingly subsume those who support it. So I very much doubt that these people will be sending their children to the school.

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Actually it's completly accurate. especially with you.You are as bad as those fundametlsit christian in USA. It's almsot creepy
Geez. Thanks. Rather than using the force of your argument, you’ve become so desperate as to call me ‘fundamentalist’ to gain a few points in this debate.. Tell me, would fundamentalists write this?

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And this duty remains at home and in everyday life however unless you want to home school your children ,the parents views and ideologically shouldn't be transfered to school. Thats' why i am very much against relgious schools
‘Everyday life’ includes schools. They are mutually inclusive.

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What i am attempting is to seperate religioon from school i have yet to actually try vilify it altough that's quite easy with most religions .
Your inhibition of people’s rights to learning about religion in the paradigm of the formal education system is anti-religious in nature. It runs contrary to the spirit of the universal ideal of ‘freedom of religion’. Religious people are sick of secularists who go too far as to suggest that even praying in school has become anathema. What next? Banning making Christmas decorations at school at the conclusion of the year? Before saying this is ridiculous, I am just logically extending your suggestion that religion should be separated from school.

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You are a really weird person. Just because you think in extremes doesn't mean that the rest of us are like you
It is as extreme as you calling me a fundamentalist, which is patently untrue. A fundamentalist who was in the Choir, String Orchestra, does public speaking and debating, was a Prefect, likes to play Utopia Tournament and whose class threw him a surprise 18TH Birthday Party? Hmmm…interestingly enough, that does not seem to fit my image of a Taliban extremist with a beard and AK-47.

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Of course. Judaism is a hard religion to get into especially if you have absolutely no contact with it like me. They have about the same chance to get into Shinto .And so what ? They would still have the choice. If they find some truths in it or like the way it might enrich their life they are free to chose it. You know if you actually have some real points and want to to say something cut the foreplay and just say it
What ‘choice’ is there if they are not provided the necessary information to make that choice?

As Martin Luther King said in his speech ‘I have a dream’, which underscores my point:

We cannot be satisfied as long as the negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one – belying the idea of freedom of movement. What sort of freedom of movement is that, moving from a smaller ghetto to a larger one?

…and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. What sort of freedom to vote is that? There is nothing for which to vote for?

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Comapred to atheists or say yellow hating people yes
So you’re completely ignoring the sectarian violence in Iraq, right? Or is that happening between people who like blue, and people who like yellow, is it?

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I imagine there is an alliance of people who hate the colour yellow somewhere as well . That doesn't not make them representatives of anybody
They have a common idea .

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Again you keep trying to genralise a whole group of people and a group of people that shares barely nothingby the acts of a very few people. In this case some militant athetists. I am very surprised a muslim of all people would try to do this.
You share the idea that God doesn’t exist. That is a pretty big commonality to believe.

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But you know what.Let's get back to the actual topic. If you want to argue about atheists let's see you start a new thread trying to prove your points about them . It would be hilarious to see you try. And it would be fun to see the answers of actual atheists as well
Let’s roll. What do you think I’ve been doing for the past 4 years?

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
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(30-Dec-2007 at 13:30)


Re: Rally against d'ment of Islamic school in Camden, NSW, Australia

Originally Posted by hussein: View Post
You share the idea that God doesn’t exist. That is a pretty big commonality to believe.
For you who believes in a god that is a big commonality maybe. Something that does not exist to me, is irrelevant.. thus not important. Not believing in a god does not define moral standards and values in any way whatsoever.
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(30-Dec-2007 at 14:06)


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Wherever did you get the idea that children need a ‘break from their home environment’ by going to school?
Not really hard to come by. Most children need at least a little brake and exposure to different views when their home envrioemnt is overhwlmingly ideloogical.

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As I see it, education in schools, whether secular or religious, is supposed to produce certain outcomes in terms of civics and values, so to suggest that ‘school should be as much neutral ground as possible’ is quite a ridiculous suggestion
No actually it makes a lot of sense. You can teach children basic human values without stuffing one ideology or religion down their thorat. In fact i think that exposing them to diverse views without puting a huge emphasis on one is even healthy

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Moreover, what will we do next?
Concentrate on helping kids who have serious problems by hiring more counselers at school (where needed)and other suport staff which can understand the problems of kids ,as well as invest money in various programs which will help them with their job orientation later

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Ban the singing of the national anthem, so kids can decide which country they will pledge their allegiance to, not blindly subscribe to a country whose values (perhaps America’s) they do not agree with (given you cannot control which country you were born in?)?
If it's mandatory by all means remove the compulsion. Otherwhise as long it is not against the law sing whatver you want

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TIME wouldn’t waste our time if it was simply ‘curious’. They inform us on contemporary and relevant stuff. That is why TIME has the reputation it does.
No it's a magazine and as such it prints what it sells as long as it is not damaging for the overall market of the Times. Including simply curious stuff

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Logical and practical? How?
Bad pr,legal troubles,lack of suport. You haven't been really listening have you? Forbiding non muslims from attending will bring even more crap their way

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Geez. Thanks. Rather than using the force of your argument, you’ve become so desperate as to call me ‘fundamentalist’ to gain a few points in this debate.. Tell me, would fundamentalists write this?
Wow and that coming from guy resorting to Stalin comparsions. And gain a few points in a deabte? Jeez what are you? A teenager. I don't give a shit about winning some imaginary points. I am simply expressing my views. I don't care if some strangers on the internet think i "win" a debate or not

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Tell me, would fundamentalists write this?
Yes we got it. You wrote a good essay. I don't care. You can't stop pimping it now.
And a fundametlist will like to indoctrinate his child from the earlisest age possible in what he believes to be absolute truth. So yes i do believe you share a lot qualities with them. Well maybe you are somewhat smarter then your average fundametalist but still you share a lot of things

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‘Everyday life’ includes schools. They are mutually inclusive.
Ok everyday life outside school your anal highness

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Your inhibition of people’s rights to learning about religion in the paradigm of the formal education system is anti-religious in nature
To you maybe. To me it seems common sense

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It runs contrary to the spirit of the universal ideal of ‘freedom of religion’.
Again maybe to you.

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Religious people are sick of secularists who go too far as to suggest that even praying in school has become anathema.
And i am sick of fantaics. But luckily for you i only want the school isntead of actually interefering in your home

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What next? Banning making Christmas decorations at school at the conclusion of the year? Before saying this is ridiculous, I am just logically extending your suggestion that religion should be separated from school.
No you are trying to talk bull again.You really only think in extremes. I am against religous and ideological indoctrination. If you want a celeberate a holiday ,it's not mandatory and the shcool itself doesn't mind feel free to do it

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It is as extreme as you calling me a fundamentalist, which is patently untrue.
Oh touched a nerve have it. And yes as i said you do share a lot similarities with christian fundametalsit in the USA(not the the muslim ones who blow themselves up if that is what you are PMSing about)

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fundamentalist who was in the Choir, String Orchestra, does public speaking and debating, was a Prefect, likes to play Utopia Tournament and whose class threw him a surprise 18TH Birthday Party?
Don't worry. We already got that you are full of yourself many posts ago. No need for repetition

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What ‘choice’ is there if they are not provided the necessary information to make that choice?
How are they not provided with this information? I don't plan on banning any books from them. They are free to dig deeper in whatever subjects and religions gets their eyes. Well altough i do plan to keep a closer eyes if they are too interested in the anarchist cookbook. Cause keeping all your fingers intact is quite important

And please stop woith the quotes. How about you show us that you have a brain and come forth with your own arguments instead of showing us that you have the rather common ability to quote and paste?

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So you’re completely ignoring the sectarian violence in Iraq, right? Or is that happening between people who like blue, and people who like yellow, is it?
That doesn't even make sense.

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You share the idea that God doesn’t exist. That is a pretty big commonality to believe.
Well Dr.U already got this one quite well

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Let’s roll. What do you think I’ve been doing for the past 4 years?
Kneeling before Zod

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
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