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Posts: 792/1971
(12-Jan-2008 at 08:47)


Quote:
Interesting…I could counteract this argument by saying I was told in Chapel at Newcastle Grammar School that salvation through Jesus Christ, the Son of God, through the paradigm of Anglicanism, is the only true path.

I’ve had a progressive, open education:

1. Went to Kindergarten at Martin Luther King Elementary School (Urbana-Champaign, Illinois, United States of America)

2. Went to Years 1-4 at Maryland Public School (Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia)

3. Went to Years 4-7 at Australian International School Singapore (Singapore) [no religious affiliation]

4. Went to Years 7-12 at Newcastle Grammar School (Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia) [Anglican affiliation]

Not indoctrination….not by far.
well obviously you were indoctrinated at home

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My objective is to raise my children as pious Muslims; it is you who seems so obviously determined to prevent this objective being achieved.
wow... are you sure?? you might be onto something there

i want to prevent it from being achieved because that is indoctrination... a good parent educates their child in fact, hell i dont even mind if a parent says to their child "if you want to follow a particular religion ill help with that" (as opposed to allowing them to, but not explicating that they will) and thats what my dad says

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On the contrary, there would be plenty of evidence that it merits government support before the religions were given it.
what??

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Ulterior motive of keeping taxpayers and voters happy.
touche

however, a government shouldnt just do everything that makes voters happy... yes, they should listen to the people, but they should also strive to do what is right

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You can’t indoctrinate 6-year-old kids. They’re more concerned about the next episode of ‘Jimmy Neutron’ or ‘Rugrats’.
You can’t indoctrinate 6-year-old kids. They’re more concerned about the next episode of ‘Jimmy Neutron’ or ‘Rugrats’.
You can’t indoctrinate 6-year-old kids. They’re more concerned about the next episode of ‘Jimmy Neutron’ or ‘Rugrats’.
You can’t indoctrinate 6-year-old kids. They’re more concerned about the next episode of ‘Jimmy Neutron’ or ‘Rugrats’.
so basically what you're saying is that a 6 year old's brain capacity is so limited that there is no point in sending them to school at that age if they can begin to learn maths and spelling, they can begin to be indoctrinated in religion

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Why not? It shows that praying actually benefits the people who practice it, religious or not, theistic or atheistic, hence proving that your charge that state sanctioned-praying is wrong is null and void, since it benefits the practitioner and so there should be no reason not to support it.
nope. psychosomatic effects would not appear for an atheist, because they dont believe that it will work - its like a placebo... and psychosomatic effects are not a good benefit to counteract the fact that children are being indoctrinated

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I do…take another look. It’s all about perspective, and on the topic of religious schools, it is evident our opinions are as disparate as Communists and Capitalists.
its all about perspective if you want to be misleading... if you want to be absolutely honest, however you jsut take a look at the raw definition... it is indoctrination if you are taught as fact something that is not fact

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Uh no…it is your argument, you substantiate it.
wtf??!?!

its not my argument at all, you're the one who brought up atheist sunday schools to begin with!

EDIT: i just realised you're permbanned... i guess that means i win the argument

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham

Last edited by Spectre19, 12-Jan-2008 at 08:49.
#81  
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Posts: 257/493
(15-Jan-2008 at 23:29)


Quote:
well obviously you were indoctrinated at home
Right, now that I’ve disproved your point that I was “indoctrinated” with “religious propaganda” at home, you make false, unsubstantiated claims of “indoctrination” at home. Tell me, did your parents not teach you any values as you grew up? Or is that different from the “indoctrination” my parents force-fed an unwilling subject?

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i want to prevent it from being achieved because that is indoctrination... a good parent educates their child in fact, hell i dont even mind if a parent says to their child "if you want to follow a particular religion ill help with that" (as opposed to allowing them to, but not explicating that they will) and thats what my dad says
Funny, I can’t really see many agnostic or atheist parents (who would be the only ones, according to your beliefs, who subscribe to the idea that there should not be “religious indoctrination”) helping, inclined to help or able to help a child be a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever. Atheism is inherently anti-religious because atheism is the absence of belief.

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however, a government shouldnt just do everything that makes voters happy... yes, they should listen to the people, but they should also strive to do what is right
If a government does not do what the people want, the people will vote them out at the next election.

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so basically what you're saying is that a 6 year old's brain capacity is so limited that there is no point in sending them to school at that age
Yes

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if they can begin to learn maths and spelling, they can begin to be indoctrinated in religion
No; weightier matters of religion (and on the flip-side, non-religion) are very different from learning what 2 x 2 = , and what 3 + 5 =, and how to spell ‘dog’ and ‘cat’ and learn the 26 letters of the alphabet.

Quote:
nope. psychosomatic effects would not appear for an atheist, because they dont believe that it will work - its like a placebo... and psychosomatic effects are not a good benefit to counteract the fact that children are being indoctrinated
The article I posted seems to suggest otherwise; as for the children being “indoctrinated”, Islamic schools, or for that matter, any religious school, are not asking the Australian government to repudiate the ideal of “freedom of religion”; indeed, Islam itself states that there should be no compulsion of religion. As such, your argument is void because ‘”indoctrination” indicates an absence of choice, while the children have every choice. Plenty of kids I know moved to my school after letting their parents know they didn’t like their old school, for whatever reason. Or moved to another school from Newcastle Grammar School, because they didn’t like Newcastle Grammar School, for whatever reason. And last time I checked, Muslim Australians are everyday Australians too. They are surf-lifesavers, play rugby, enjoy Buffy: The Vampire Slayer, eat pizza, go to parties, whatever (and yes, I have checked that they do all these activities). Sure, the odd Muslim has extremist sympathies, and would like to waste infidel Australians, but there are the odd people in Australia as well who are rapists, murders, white supremacists, irresponsible teenagers who party while their parents are on holiday in the Gold Coast and rack up a damages bill of $20 000. Does not mean that either of these minority fringes are representative of the community as a whole.

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its all about perspective if you want to be misleading... if you want to be absolutely honest, however you jsut take a look at the raw definition... it is indoctrination if you are taught as fact something that is not fact
You are imposing your atheistic/agnostic beliefs on religious people i.e. you are acting in a way I think that no person should act. No one should impose their beliefs on others.

Quote:
wtf??!?!

its not my argument at all, you're the one who brought up atheist sunday schools to begin with!

EDIT: i just realised you're permbanned... i guess that means i win the argument
I think these moderators have something against me; I’ve been banned thrice now.

I brought up the atheist Sunday school article to substantiate my argument. Whenever you make an argument, you must back it up.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
#82  
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Posts: 802/1971
(16-Jan-2008 at 00:52)


Quote:
Right, now that I’ve disproved your point that I was “indoctrinated” with “religious propaganda” at home, you make false, unsubstantiated claims of “indoctrination” at home. Tell me, did your parents not teach you any values as you grew up? Or is that different from the “indoctrination” my parents force-fed an unwilling subject?
my parents taught me universal values that also appear in religion (but are not inherently religious) such as murder is wrong... telling someone murder is wrong is not indoctrination

Quote:
Funny, I can’t really see many agnostic or atheist parents (who would be the only ones, according to your beliefs, who subscribe to the idea that there should not be “religious indoctrination”) helping, inclined to help or able to help a child be a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever. Atheism is inherently anti-religious because atheism is the absence of belief.
funny, i think it would be a fuckin hell of a lot easier for someone to become a christian if they had atheist parents than if they had islamic parents

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If a government does not do what the people want, the people will vote them out at the next election.
well, now that we've cleared that up, how about instead of this government bullshit, why not just have a friggin vote on every issue that ever comes up - dump the government altogether and have the people decide on every decision

ffs hussein, a government is there to lead, and make decisions - we elect them because we trust their decisions and judgements and enforcing freedom

to vote out a government because they refuse to endorse creationist beliefs is just about the most immature thing i have ever heard

Quote:
Yes
ah, so the departments of education all over the world who have researched learning patterns etc. for decades really have no authority on the matter at all, and should throw that shit out and send kids to school at 10 instead of 6

Quote:
No; weightier matters of religion (and on the flip-side, non-religion) are very different from learning what 2 x 2 = , and what 3 + 5 =, and how to spell ‘dog’ and ‘cat’ and learn the 26 letters of the alphabet.
religions are a story

let me give you an example from the bible as i am unfamiliar with the quran: adam and eve

little 6 yr old children would get told this story in a christian school - some impressive being created the earth in seven days and made two people who got banished from the garden of eden for eating an apple that gave them knowledge of good and evil

sounds similar to a fantast story - difference is, when a kid starts to get older you tell them fairies and dragons and leprechauns dont exist - but when they say "is this magic thing called god real?" they get the reply "yes"...

religion can easily be indoctrinated into 6 year olds through the stories within religious texts - dont be daft

Quote:
The article I posted seems to suggest otherwise
no it doesnt - it suggests psychosomatic effects or praying - by definition psychosomatic effects require strong belief in what you're doing which doesnt come from an atheist

Quote:
as for the children being “indoctrinated”, Islamic schools, or for that matter, any religious school, are not asking the Australian government to repudiate the ideal of “freedom of religion”; indeed, Islam itself states that there should be no compulsion of religion.
it doesnt matter if they fucking say "no compul;sion of religion" - i dont know how many fucking times i have to refute this bullshit, but ill do it one more time so listen carefully

IF YOU TELL A CHILD THAT ISLAM IS A FACT THEN WHEN THEY GROW UP THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO GIVE THAT UP - THERE IS ONLY AN ILLUSION OF CHOICE. THIS IS A PROBLEM BECAUSE ISLAM IS NOT A FACT

Quote:
You are imposing your atheistic/agnostic beliefs on religious people i.e. you are acting in a way I think that no person should act. No one should impose their beliefs on others.
if no one should impose their beliefs on others then what the fuck are religious schools doing in our system, which is the whole point im trying to make

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I think these moderators have something against me; I’ve been banned thrice now.
probably because you break the rules all the time

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I brought up the atheist Sunday school article to substantiate my argument. Whenever you make an argument, you must back it up.
i did - my argument was that the article doesnt substantiate your argument in any way, and i backed it up by saying that its about ONE atheist sunday school, and that the article in no way suggests that this is a common thing

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#83  
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Posts: 396/493
(04-Apr-2008 at 05:57)


Quote:
my parents taught me universal values that also appear in religion (but are not inherently religious) such as murder is wrong... telling someone murder is wrong is not indoctrination
Funny, that’s what my parents do as well.

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funny, i think it would be a fuckin hell of a lot easier for someone to become a christian if they had atheist parents than if they had islamic parents
Oh yeah? The virulently anti-Christian Ted Turner tried to convince his ex-wife Jane Fonda not to convert to Christianity.

Quote:
well, now that we've cleared that up, how about instead of this government bullshit, why not just have a friggin vote on every issue that ever comes up - dump the government altogether and have the people decide on every decision

ffs hussein, a government is there to lead, and make decisions - we elect them because we trust their decisions and judgements and enforcing freedom

to vote out a government because they refuse to endorse creationist beliefs is just about the most immature thing i have ever heard
Who’s endorsing “creationist” beliefs? Why do you think they have Christian studies in public primary schools? Before you say it doesn't happen, I experienced it firsthand.

Quote:
ah, so the departments of education all over the world who have researched learning patterns etc. for decades really have no authority on the matter at all, and should throw that shit out and send kids to school at 10 instead of 6
Please stop citing stuff which I never said in the first place.



Quote:

religions are a story

let me give you an example from the bible as i am unfamiliar with the quran: adam and eve

little 6 yr old children would get told this story in a christian school - some impressive being created the earth in seven days and made two people who got banished from the garden of eden for eating an apple that gave them knowledge of good and evil

sounds similar to a fantast story - difference is, when a kid starts to get older you tell them fairies and dragons and leprechauns dont exist - but when they say "is this magic thing called god real?" they get the reply "yes"...

religion can easily be indoctrinated into 6 year olds through the stories within religious texts - dont be daft
Let me tell you another.

Santa with his flying reindeer manages in the space of one night to give presents via their chimneys to every child in the world.

What happens if the child isn’t a Christian, isn’t of a religious family or doesn’t have a chimney is conveniently left out.

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no it doesnt - it suggests psychosomatic effects or praying - by definition psychosomatic effects require strong belief in what you're doing which doesnt come from an atheist
Funny….Buddhists are atheists, yet they pray.

Quote:
IF YOU TELL A CHILD THAT ISLAM IS A FACT THEN WHEN THEY GROW UP THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO GIVE THAT UP - THERE IS ONLY AN ILLUSION OF CHOICE. THIS IS A PROBLEM BECAUSE ISLAM IS NOT A FACT
1. Under NSW law, parents have the right to choose their child’s
religion.
2. Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Barack Obama? People who turned from Islam to
atheism and Christianity respectively.
3. How likely do you think that someone will become a devout
Christian when raised in a secular family environmeny by
agnostic/atheist parents?

Quote:
if no one should impose their beliefs on others then what the fuck are religious schools doing in our system, which is the whole point im trying to make
You’d make a great parent. What are you going to do when you become a father – Son, you can do whatever the fuck you want. I would love to see how such a child would turn out.. A fuckin' wanker is my guess.

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i did - my argument was that the article doesnt substantiate your argument in any way, and i backed it up by saying that its about ONE atheist sunday school, and that the article in no way suggests that this is a common thing
It’s more likely to be a trend in American society than an anomaly, particularly if it is reported in the respected editorial TIME.

Never give in, never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School
#84  
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