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Posts: 157/294
(26-Jan-2008 at 07:30)
Religion

So I have too ask why are you christians still christians too today?

Do you think science is false? Why do you specifically believe the bible?

I out of all people am not making fun of you and DO NOT RESPOND to the people who are. I want too know what makes you, "YOU". I doubt there are christians on this board though... let me know!!!

Last edited by Ninjoo, 26-Jan-2008 at 07:32.
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(26-Jan-2008 at 08:36)


Re: Religion

Originally Posted by Ninjoo: View Post
So I have too ask why are you christians still christians too today?
Cause I want to be.


Quote:
Do you think science is false?
Not at all


Quote:
Why do you specifically believe the bible?
I dont. Like most religious text I believe in the message of peace, understanding, and brotherhood. Any message that promotes peace should not be ignored ... but to believe in the bible literally without question would be ignorant.

Quote:
I doubt there are christians on this board though... let me know!!!
This argument is based on what?

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#2  
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(26-Jan-2008 at 09:08)


I'm mainly Christian because I was born into a Christian family and raised Christian. I currently still am Christian, because it seems like the right thing to do, and it gives me a sort of "moral compass", I mean say I believe in God, and there ends up there isn't one, its not as if I lose anything, you know? Worst case scenario, it helped me lead a better life.

I believe in science too, I don't take all the things from the bible literally, more metaphorically. Not to mention there are some things science cant explain, such as the spark of life, ect. Religion is a good place to get answers for that.

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."
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(26-Jan-2008 at 09:20)


Re: Religion

Originally Posted by Ninjoo: View Post
So I have too ask why are you christians still christians too today?
Runs through the family. I was born a Christian, raised a Christian and I don't see any reason for that to change anytime in the near future.

Originally Posted by Ninjoo: View Post
Do you think science is false?
Absolutely not. I do Physics and Chemistry at school. If I didn't believe in it, I would absolutely flunk Science (which I probably do already...).

Originally Posted by Ninjoo: View Post
Why do you specifically believe the bible?
Because I choose to. It is a faith, and I choose to have faith. There are some things which I do believe, but others, which I do not.

Originally Posted by Ninjoo: View Post
I doubt there are christians on this board though... let me know!!!
You're misinformed. According to this thread, 37% of participants are Christians, an overwhelming majority of those who actually follow a particular religion.

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(26-Jan-2008 at 16:13)


Originally Posted by Chillin: View Post
I'm mainly Christian because I was born into a Christian family and raised Christian. I currently still am Christian, because it seems like the right thing to do, and it gives me a sort of "moral compass", I mean say I believe in God, and there ends up there isn't one, its not as if I lose anything, you know? Worst case scenario, it helped me lead a better life.

I believe in science too, I don't take all the things from the bible literally, more metaphorically. Not to mention there are some things science cant explain, such as the spark of life, ect. Religion is a good place to get answers for that.
Chillin more or less hit the nail on the head as to how I view christianity, however I am slightly different because I am now catholic.

I don't believe in the catholic, church, or the power that it wields and I think that it should stop interfering so much in peoples lives. I believe that a persons relationship with god or whatever deity you should worship is a personal thing and not for something big and large and unpersonal like the church though it does help in certain ceremonies (christening (sp?) communion etc etc) but overall I think the catholic church is to involved in peoples faith.

Must be the reason I'm not a good little catholic
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(26-Jan-2008 at 18:44)


I don't mean any offense, but I don't see how anyone can admit that the reason for his belief is that he was born into a Christian family. I am not a religious guy, but I think that belief should always be based on a personal choice, not a socially determined factor. Things like moral compass and messages of peace etc aren't very good reasons to me either. It's great that your religion gives you benefits in real life, but don't you think that it should always in the end be based on the faith that there is a caring deity out there?

To me, people who say that it's possible that there's not a God out there, but that they aren't losing anything if there isn't don't really understand the issue at hand if you ask me. You don't really believe if you rationalise your faith into chances and results.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

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(26-Jan-2008 at 18:56)
Saint sinner, let me rephrase the question so you can understand it better.

Why do you choose to be a christian? Why not choose to be a budist?

The bible has some messeges of peace in it but also is violent in some aspects of the word. For instance, jesus being beaten or the sky raining fire or even the sea turning into blood.

How does this make you feel about christianity? Does it sway your religious choice?

Chillin, thanks for explaining your religion. I have some further questions for you.

Do you try to hold back from sinning and are you afraid to sin because of god?

With out repenting before you go to heaven, you have a possible chance to go to hell. How does this make you feel?

Do you stop yourself from doing something enjoyable because of sin?

Alex.. I guess until someone actually disproves jesus then it still makes sense to be a christian.

Let me clearify what I mean by science. Do you believe the big bang happend? Do you believe the latest theories that attempt to clearify how the universe started? Do you think that god created everything at once or do you believe that god 'got the ball rolling' so to speak?

Celtic
The church swayed your opinion about the catholic religion? I have a question. If you and your son had been going to church for years and the same church at that and the priest was literly like a brother to you. You thought you could trust everyone in that church. One day you found out your son has been getting molested by the priest for years. Would this sway your believe on christiany or would you be more paticular about the church you go to? What would be your next move as far as religion goes?
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(Posted as Celtic19)
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(26-Jan-2008 at 20:34)


Quote:
The church swayed your opinion about the catholic religion? I have a question. If you and your son had been going to church for years and the same church at that and the priest was literly like a brother to you. You thought you could trust everyone in that church. One day you found out your son has been getting molested by the priest for years. Would this sway your believe on christiany or would you be more paticular about the church you go to? What would be your next move as far as religion goes?
See. You weren't listening.

I don't believe in the power of the catholic church. I think they are far to involved in peoples belief in god. If you want to believe in god and pray to him etc etc why do you need to go to a church to do so?

Anyways to answer your question: I'd make sure the bastard who did it got sent to prison. I'd make sure the church implements way stronger guidelines to prevent this from happening.

I wouldn't stop believing in god.

Then again god hasn't exactly been my favourite deity for the last couple years....And don't ask why because I am not giving an answer...
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(27-Jan-2008 at 08:05)


Originally Posted by Ninjoo:
Chillin, thanks for explaining your religion. I have some further questions for you.

Do you try to hold back from sinning and are you afraid to sin because of god?

With out repenting before you go to heaven, you have a possible chance to go to hell. How does this make you feel?

Do you stop yourself from doing something enjoyable because of sin?
No problem, Ill see if I can answer those for you too.

I'm not too worried about sinning, I mean chances are if something is considered a sin, its probably something bad to be doing in the first place, so i probably shouldn't be doing said action anyways. Thats why I say religion is sort of a "moral compass". I don't however "fear" God, I think that in the end I'll end up "more good than bad" so to speak. When I do something that turns out to be bad, or it hurt someone, ect, usually I am honestly sorry about it, and that as far as I'm concerned is usually good enough. If I was however a serial killer or something, then I might start to fear God because I am out consistently doing horrible thing, I just dont see myself in that bad of a category is all.

There is a possible chance I might go to hell, yes, but as I just said, I really think my chances are good to get into heaven, so it really doesnt bother me too much.

Lastly, if there was somethign enjoyable that I wanted to do I wouldnt stop doing it simply because it was a sin, but I might not do it simply because it is the wrong thing to do. Example - Having sex with my best friends girl, might be something enjoyable (actually it obviously would be enjoyable ), but I wouldn't do it simply because doing that is wrong, and it also happens to be a sin(one of the ten commandments in fact - "Tho shall not covet thy neighbor's wife.") I wont stop doing something simply because it is a sin though.

Im definately not a typical Christian. I'm Lutheran actually. I dont go to church very often at all, because I am of the beleif that I dont need to sit in a building and hear someone tell me how I should worship my God, its pretty dumb to me actually, I can handle that on my own. Thats probably why I have developed my own sort of rules so to speak, and they work for me, and I personally am square with God, so its all good over here.

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."
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(27-Jan-2008 at 14:12)


Quote:
Example - Having sex with my best friends girl, might be something enjoyable (actually it obviously would be enjoyable ), but I wouldn't do it simply because doing that is wrong, and it also happens to be a sin(one of the ten commandments in fact - "Tho shall not covet thy neighbor's wife.")
that commandment is about envy - if you're having sex with your neighbour's wife, you arent coveting at all

of course, you would be in direct violation of "thou shalt not commit adultery"

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
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(27-Jan-2008 at 19:28)
spectre, I don't think the commandment that he would be breaking would be about envy if he wasn't jelous but had sex with her anyway.
The commandment broken would be adultry and lust, which in return, I can understand the points about moral guidance.Cheating with your best friends girl friend can obviously lead to a moral dilema, where are all the commandments could possibly be breached.

Chillin, I remeber reading a passage in the bible that says something like "all shall fear god".
As far as sin goes, did you know that you are guilty of sin if you just think about the action. For instance, if you consider having sex with your friends girlfriend, its like you already did.

Speaking of which, the situation that you mentioned has actually happend to me a few times, exept it wasn't my best friend or even a friend really, so I understand exacy what you are talking about.

It makes a lot of sense that you wouldn't stop just because its a sin but because you feel moraly wrong about it, almost like an exestentialist(sp?) might.

My next question is how do you feel about the situation that you were put into from god? You have to choose between sinning and not sinning or heaven and hell. Do you think its fair that you were born with a decsision that had to be made?

How do you feel about the extremes of heaven and hell? One is a place of absolution and celestial bliss and the other place is a place of insurrmontanble(sp?) torture.
This is our only choice and the most important thing we could ever decide to do in life.

I think if you are christian, sining is a very important thing to avoid and gods rules are a must to follow because if you think of the extremes, heaven vs hell, when it comes to agonizing torture vs bliss, the word of god is meant to be taken serious and followed day in and day out.

666, I have something to say about your point. I have to point out, that everyone is born into a society and what the society accepts, mostly everone agrees. I am not talking about extremes in diffrent culture or issues like civil war. I am talking about the basics of whats going on in your individual culture. Back in the 1960s it was not common for women to shave there legs are arm pits. Now because a lot of people agree that they should in 'society' or your 'culture', it merely becomes gross and unaccepted when they don't
Think about all the ages, most men back in the 1800s thought that heavy set women were absolutley beautiful and now days since we set the standerts on weight.. people are not accepted as much if they are larger.

This same concept has to do with religion. I just had to explain it so you would understand where I was going with this.
People have these beliefs instilled into there brains from child hood and once you instill a belief into a person it is extremely difficult to get them to just forget about what they were taught there whole lives. For humans, fitting in comes natrual, so when everyone around you speaks english or is religious chances are you do too.
For most people, its very hard to ignore the people around you that taught you everything you know, even if its about religion and even if it doesn't seem rational to you.

Celetic, I was making giving an example of a priest in christanity getting way too involved in your life.. but I do understand your point

Last edited by Ninjoo, 27-Jan-2008 at 19:35.
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(27-Jan-2008 at 20:23)


Ninjoo, you completely misinterpreted my point. It has nothing to do with rationality or not. True belief can not be based on cultural determinancies, not because it's not rational, but because it's not really belief. Your point about body hair makes that quite clear. I think a large amount of body hair is not beautiful, but when I say 'too much body hair is ugly', that's a noncognitive statement. It does not have a truthclaim in it. I'm aware that it is subjective and culturally determined, but that doesn't matter.

Obviously this is not the case for believing in God. You can't say 'I believe in the Christian God, but I know that it is culturally determined and I'd be a Hindu if I were born in India'. That's not belief at all. And this is why religion should be based on a personal choice and not on your culture.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
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(27-Jan-2008 at 21:01)
You can only believe in something if you are taught to believe it, which is a fact.

You don't miss anything that you never had. If you were born in india, and religious it is almost guarenteed that you wouldn't be christian.

Religion comes from something that is instilled into your mind.

Lets take language for instance.. chances are you are not logically going to ignore the language that is around you. You are gonna use that language if you hear it and it is around you.

Its not a coisidence(sp?) that most people from mexico are catholic. Most people will believe the religion that is accepted in there culture. If were born in a muslim culture, the chances are, if you are religious then you are going to have that religion in that culture.

When you grow up and start finding out more information about other religions, you might already have a bias opinion, sure its possible to choose another religion but for the most part its not likely.

If you are raised caltholic and you no longer follow your religion when you are an adult that doesn't mean that the catholic religion has completly left you. You might feel guilty about things that the bible told you were wrong that you don't even believe in.

This pretty much goes into the nature vs nurture debate. Environment does infact play a massive rule on your belief system and its obvious.

Just because you say that you believe the religion out of choice alone, that doesn't mean you actually do.
Brain washing, actually effects you on a subconcious lvl, well you think its your choice its really not, because after you have been brain washed, if you decide to be a new religion, the old religion will still already have played a role in your subconsious thinking. Now that your subconcious thoughts come into play, it actually physically starts to effect your brain chemistry and the way you think.

Another example, it would be like a programmed robot trying to tell you its his descision what he does. When its clearly not and his descision was up to the programmers.

The programmers are society and what they believe in and because you are surrounded by the everyday culture of things, the gravity of it subconciously effects you in a significant way, weather you are willing to accept it or not.

For instance, even atheist, if there wasn't even a small sub culture of atheist then no one else would be atheist. Humans just simply mimic each other and feed off of ideas.
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(27-Jan-2008 at 21:39)


Yawn. Try comprehending instead of repeating the same pointless nonsense.

Quote:
You can only believe in something if you are taught to believe it, which is a fact.
No, that's bullshit. If it were a fact, there wouldn't be any new religions.

It's all besides the point anyhow. I never said that belief wasn't completely determined. Sure it is. That's not important. You still have to make a choice. You can either decide to live, as Sartre would say, un-authentically, and just happily go along with whatever your parents and neighbours do, or you can actually try thinking for yourself and deciding on whether you really believe what you say you believe.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
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(27-Jan-2008 at 23:08)
666 well said, the only problem is what I am saying is a bit deeper.

Say you are hypnotised, and the person who hynotised you made it so, that everytime someone wrote on a chalk board, you put your hands in your pocket.

In this instance the person who hypnotised you made it so that you had an innate response, that when chalk touches the black board, you will put your hands in your pocket with out thinking about it.

What it breaks down to is the fact that you don't recognize the fact that you put your hands in your pocket. You didn't think about it at all and just did it. In this sense the there was no choice about where to put your hands beceause a subconscious thought was automatically initiated when the chalk hit the black board.

The same refers to what I am talking about. I know exactly what you guys mean, its just what I am talking about is a deep seeded notion about reactions to certain elements in your environment.

When parents talk with a child about how the world was created and bring up religion, the child is not only responding to its heros but the child is looking for guidance.
Parents usually relate religion with comfortable thoughts.. (religion being lime green) (evil being vomit green) (just a little analergy on symbolism). The evil thoughts are usually related with uncomfortable thoughts.

The fact is everyone at a certain age needs guidance are follows some sorta thing. If a lonley white kid in a ghetto that lives with mainly black kids and is not accepted then this person is looking for some sorta way to be accepted. If a nazi accepts him and tells him that GOD doesn't accept those races and he is just putting your through a test, then the kid will seriously believe that.

A fine example of exactly what I am talking about is demonstrated in the movie "American history x"

Ultimatly choices are sometimes not the option that you have and reguardless of weather you want to believe it or not, every human being needs compasion.

Any way my point about religion, is sometimes the subconcious mind has significant effects on what you believe in.

Again say a hypnotist convinces you that everytime chalk touches the chalk board, you should feel anxiety. So the teacher writes on the board with chalk and you feel anxiety when he does that. Is this your choice to feel anxiety, really?

Hopefully you understand the analergies.

Last edited by Ninjoo, 27-Jan-2008 at 23:12.
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(27-Jan-2008 at 23:30)


Quote:
Any way my point about religion, is sometimes the subconcious mind has significant effects on what you believe in.

Again say a hypnotist convinces you that everytime chalk touches the chalk board, you should feel anxiety. So the teacher writes on the board with chalk and you feel anxiety when he does that. Is this your choice to feel anxiety, really?
So basically what your getting at is that your upbringing has a large part of wether your going to end up Christian or not. And I'd say your right, if I was born into a family that worshipped Satan,, and they pounded that into my head for 10 years there is a chance I migth be a Satan worshiper, and the chance of me being a Christian would be way down. But religion isnt the only aspect that this takes hold into, take for example a rich snobby person, kinda like a Paris Hilton. She is this way because she was born into it. If she was born to a homeless crackhead mother in Compton, she wouldnt be snobby today would she?

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."
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(27-Jan-2008 at 23:44)
Chillin, you are frickin awesome. You are the only person who understood my point well. What you said is exactly what I am trying to point out.

If I was seriously brought up in a family that worshoped satan, I would worshop satan too.
It seems like a choice to be christian, but when your family has any say so, you have a narrow path of options.

You are hitting my arguement exact, which is why I brought up 'nature vs nurture', anyone that knew what I was talking about would have got into the same discussion about religion as you did.

When you are a little kid and ask for guidance about religion, which most kids do, you mostly get the facts on what religion your parents accepted.

I swear on everything I believe, even if you are atheist, and your parents tried to instill religion into you, religion will take up a big part of your mind

Last edited by Ninjoo, 27-Jan-2008 at 23:48.
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(28-Jan-2008 at 00:07)


TY, I'm glad someone else realizes my awesomeness

Anyways there is one little thing I'd like to add, once you have been raised a Christian, there usually is a time in which you eventually have to decide whether or not religion as a whole is complete bullshit and if you want to continue following your said religion or not. Granted you have been "conditioned" so to speak to believe it, so odds are you will most likely continue that path, but that isnt to say some people who are raised Christian don't end up not being Christian in the end. And it also leads to each individual sort of changing some of the ideas in said religion (similar to how I have) to make more sense for them personally.

But your still right upbringing sure has alot to do with it, and I am honestly thankful I was brought up in the environment I was...

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."
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(28-Jan-2008 at 00:29)
Once again I would like to point out your awesomeness.. you used the word "conditioning" I had that word on the frickin tip of my tongue for a while and couldn't think of it.

Thats what I'm talking about. "Social conditioning" that is specifically the pyschology that im refering to. Its like when my environmental science teacher mentioned the word double entendre out of NO WHERE.. frickin tip of the tongue thanks.. you seriously are chill.

there is a specific time where you decide weather or not its crap but even if you decside to think its crap the social conditioning will eventually apply to you
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(28-Jan-2008 at 08:54)


The tragedy is the one sidedness. My mum tried most religions and offered me to tell about each of them even though she was an atheist. She proposed this when i was around 9-12 years old and I didnt see the point of picking something to believe in, for me something was either true or not and it seemed too ridiculous to arbitrarily decide which god was true and which were false. If felt I did not have that power and therefore remained skeptical, until sensible arguments lodged me firmly in the atheist slot.

It makes me wonder too: what if you teach kids about all the religions, without the parents hammering in their version? What would the world look like with such balanced education?

"Observers worldwide have been expressing great pity for the people of Gaza [...] This pity may be a natural emotional reaction, yet it is unethical and immoral." - Adi Dvir, Ynetnews editor
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