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Posts: 2290/2825
(11-Apr-2008 at 08:38)


Quote:
In history was a ruler who ordered the massacre of civilians and rape of women. His soldiers had no moral remose to follow the orders. They had law and their moral views didnt held them from commiting this (i may add this is a normativ remark): "injustice".
I have no idea what you are talking about. History is full of examples of some guy or girls standing up for their beliefs. No matter what religion or ideology he/she follows. Just like it's full of atroctiies commite from all kinds of people

Quote:
What im saying is that its bold to assume a moral progress. In future people will surely talk of us as of barbarians just as people nowadays talk about the former slave traders. If you think there is a moral progress, can you forsee an end, a peak of morality, an utopian society? Or are we humans bound to repeat things which we from our todays moral standpoint see as barbaric, because in future they will be socially acceptable again?
It's progress from out point of view. And certinly from the point of view of the people who were once in a seriosuly fucked up situation. Nobody can predict the future. It's possible that we would revert to older ideologies or not


Quote:
Its basicly your own will that constitues what is moral and what not. For me its God, he gives validity to everything.
No for you it's Mohamed. Who was also a man. People have yet to prove the existence of god.

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 11-Apr-2008 at 08:38.
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(11-Apr-2008 at 08:39)


I think you severely misunderstand what legal positivism means.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
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(11-Apr-2008 at 11:31)


Re: Grounding of Universal values

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Grashnak, all pre-islamic religions which came from God had a core message which was that submit yourself to God, and God is One.
Or three if you follow christianity.

Quote:
God as the source of morality can pass different commandments and base them all on His morality.
For this to be true would you not have to agree His morality must change with the times ? How can you know if the message revealed is true, if you believe the word of God, you must know that the message revealed by Mohammed contained lies: 1 Kings 22 : 22-23. What you have read as His guidance on morality contains direct falsehoods.

Quote:
Societies had the peak of morality in their hands and when they rejected religion they began to morally degrade. Kingdoms and civilisations had their groundings on religious values of submitting oneself to God and when they collapsed they had changed these essential truth.
Do you really mean the Romans should have stayed faithful to Jupiter ? That the conversion for christianity was the cause of their failure ? Which God did the Ming dynesty turn away from when it fell ?

Quote:
But how can you convince yourself that your moral sphere of movement is actually moral? Its basicly your own will that constitues what is moral and what not.
I agree, my will is shaped by my society but ultimately it is from my own mind, there is no father to guide me.

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
#43  
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(12-Apr-2008 at 01:52)


Originally Posted by Grashnak:
Or three if you follow christianity.
Where in the Bible is stated that Jesus says so? That God is three? Please provide me with a quote.

Quote:
For this to be true would you not have to agree His morality must change with the times ? How can you know if the message revealed is true, if you believe the word of God, you must know that the message revealed by Mohammed contained lies: 1 Kings 22 : 22-23. What you have read as His guidance on morality contains direct falsehoods.
Im lost here. Which connection has Kings with Muhammad (peace be upon him)? Regarding Kings 22:22-23 i can only say that it contradicts the tendency of humans which leads us towards God. This tendancy tells me that the part of Bible is wrong. God doesnt speak evil nor are prophets allowed to lie. But, as i have stated in previous threads. I believe everything alligns towards God, and just we humans (and Jinns also actually) with the freedom of choice, have the freedom to choose to drive away from God.

You non-religious people say you choose your morals, assuming the best, and live by it. Ok, even Islam has this concept of an allignment towards what is Good. Its called Fitra. But as Bernel (or was it Caelis666 or someone else? I cant find the paragraph) says: knowing your source of morality, doesnt necessarily gives you rules which help you decide the 'moral' course of action for specific situations. That was what i critised in my other thread "Make me a Muslim" that the Bible may have a true core of moral values in its verses (i.e. dont murder) but it doesnt gives you guidance for specific situations. What Islam does by following the example of the Prophet (pbuh), who shows mankind, how to lead a believers life. And for muslims the prophet (pbuh) was the ideal human being sent to us from God as a Mercy. Muslims have a fixed source of morality which is unchanged for 1400 years, and they have instructions how to act in specific situations with the assurance that by following Qur'an and Hadith (the prophets (pbuh) teachings) helps them lead a life which peaks to the highest stages of morality, namely leads direct to Gods proximity and to Paradise in the Hereafter.

Quote:
I agree, my will is shaped by my society but ultimately it is from my own mind, there is no father to guide me.
I totally agree that we humans have ultimate responsibility and we shape our destiny bearing in mind that society does affect our decisions. However, i cannot agree on the last part of your sentence. It is our decisions but its Gods Will that makes us accomplish our will into reality. But thats a question of what you think of how much power humans actually have.

Quote:
Do you really mean the Romans should have stayed faithful to Jupiter ? That the conversion for christianity was the cause of their failure ? Which God did the Ming dynesty turn away from when it fell ?
However. Let me ask you instead of giving answers to these questions: what followed the roman empire? And thinking further, what revived Europe again?

Originally Posted by Caelis666:
I think you severely misunderstand what legal positivism means.
My thougths arent clear and well presented. That is because im trying to understand all at once and im premature in jumping into conclusions. But I know im up to something interesting and i wont stop until ive found answers to my questions.

Originally Posted by DHoffryn:
It's progress from out point of view. And certinly from the point of view of the people who were once in a seriosuly fucked up situation. Nobody can predict the future. It's possible that we would revert to older ideologies or not
Dont you think that human progress will lead us to higher grounds of morality? I was under the impression that was the way you see things. As an upward progression, despite setbacks, regarding humanity, technology, evolution, etc. etc. etc. Do you feel happy with being a human being of this specific time with our specific morals?

peace everyone

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
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(12-Apr-2008 at 06:19)
Re: Grounding of Universal values

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
What Islam does by following the example of the Prophet (pbuh), who shows mankind, how to lead a believers life. And for muslims the prophet (pbuh) was the ideal human being sent to us from God as a Mercy. Muslims have a fixed source of morality which is unchanged for 1400 years, and they have instructions how to act in specific situations with the assurance that by following Qur'an and Hadith (the prophets (pbuh) teachings) helps them lead a life which peaks to the highest stages of morality, namely leads direct to Gods proximity and to Paradise in the Hereafter.
I understand you have a strong faith, but doesn't it bother you to make statements like this knowing how they are contradicted by how countries with mainly Muslim populations act? Even if the Quran should be the true word of God is it obviously not enough as a source of moral.
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(12-Apr-2008 at 08:06)


Re: Grounding of Universal values

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post

Dont you think that human progress will lead us to higher grounds of morality? I was under the impression that was the way you see things. As an upward progression, despite setbacks, regarding humanity, technology, evolution, etc. etc. etc. Do you feel happy with being a human being of this specific time with our specific morals?

peace everyone
As i already explained from my point of view and my personal opinion the last few decades the West and some other countries made quite a progress. Will this be seen as a progress in the future is impossible to tell. I am not arrogant enough to think that my morality is objective. But despite a few setbacks every once in a while, the increased tolerance,rights,scientific porogress, and so much is defintly beneficial to me
And yes i do feel quite happy living in a country with a western style culture

Quote:
what followed the roman empire?
For the eastern part it was the Ottoman empire which as far as culture and progress was concerned is way inferior imo. Unless you count the latin empire but this didn't last long.For the western part from what i remember it was mostly barbaric(as called by some) countries for while or do you mean the Holy Roman Empire?

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 12-Apr-2008 at 08:07.
#46  
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(12-Apr-2008 at 12:38)


Re: Grounding of Universal values

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Where in the Bible is stated that Jesus says so? That God is three? Please provide me with a quote.
Well it's up to your interpretation if you believe Jesus was not only the son of God but also God himself and that the Holy Spirit that visited Mary for example was also God or not.... fact is Christians believe it so irrespective of biblical backing.

Quote:
Im lost here. Which connection has Kings with Muhammad (peace be upon him)?
Forgive me if I have made an error, but was Mohammed not a prophet ? If so, does this passage not warn that he will lie ?

Quote:
Regarding Kings 22:22-23 i can only say that it contradicts the tendency of humans which leads us towards God. This tendancy tells me that the part of Bible is wrong. God doesnt speak evil nor are prophets allowed to lie.
Do you have any scripture to back this idea of yours up ? If this part of the Bible is wrong, how can you claim earlier religions are based on God's moraility since such critical errors have sneaked in ? Anyway, how can it be wrong, Jesus himself states that everything written before him by prophets is going to stay forever Matthew 5 : 17, Luke 16 : 17, I guess even the false stuff as per the warning in Kings.

Quote:
And for muslims the prophet (pbuh) was the ideal human being sent to us from God as a Mercy. Muslims have a fixed source of morality which is unchanged for 1400 years, and they have instructions how to act in specific situations with the assurance that by following Qur'an and Hadith (the prophets (pbuh) teachings) helps them lead a life which peaks to the highest stages of morality, namely leads direct to Gods proximity and to Paradise in the Hereafter.
You agree it is a moral act to kill unbelievers then 2 : 24, 2 : 191 ? Warning them is a waste of time of course 2 : 6, Allah himself will kill us after all 7 : 164. Tell me Armitage, should I fear your passing ?

Quote:
However. Let me ask you instead of giving answers to these questions: what followed the roman empire? And thinking further, what revived Europe again?
Ummm... Europe is a very large place. Modern day Finland wasn't exactly under Rome's thumb for example and Romes fall was of very limited effect. Also which part of time/history are you wanting to talk about ? Feudalism ? Charlemagne ? Mongols ? Islamic invasions ? Vikings ? Nation states ?

With regards a revivied Europe, I guess you are trying to imply that Europe was somehow broken after the collapse of the western roman empire, it wasn't. Sure things changed, but the invading goths just took over the remnants of civilisation and the people carried on, there wasn't sudden massive lawlessness, starvation & disease everywhere. Trade, farming and the little industry that exisited carried on. Perhaps you should have a quick read of the wiki on the fall of the Western Roman Empire, you may be very surprised. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire

Anyway, how does any of this relate to your statement that:

Quote:
Societies had the peak of morality in their hands and when they rejected religion they began to morally degrade. Kingdoms and civilisations had their groundings on religious values of submitting oneself to God and when they collapsed they had changed these essential truth.
When we compare to the once almighty Rome ? Which Egyptian God did that seemingly everlasting civilisation move away from ?

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
#47  
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(13-Apr-2008 at 02:12)


This isn't religion, its philosophy. Intro to philosophy.

Go live in a society that doesn't outlaw murder and where people don't think murder is a big deal. What? Can't find one? That's because they would all be dead. Hard to make bonds and relationships when people could die at any second for small reasons.

What about lying? Try having communication in a society where lying isn't frowned upon. How could I tell if what you say is true? Why should I bother talking to you if I can't rely on the information being true? Why bother talking at all if this is the case?

Humans in groups, and indeed societies, who do not value life and honesty (just to name a couple) do not do well.

Mars II - American Scientist
PhD - Physical Chemistry
#48  
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(13-Apr-2008 at 06:41)
Re: Grounding of Universal values

Originally Posted by Mars II: View Post
Go live in a society that doesn't outlaw murder and where people don't think murder is a big deal. What? Can't find one? That's because they would all be dead. Hard to make bonds and relationships when people could die at any second for small reasons.
How about if you were cunning enough to rise to power into a dictatorship of sorts. Say, as a member of the secret police. That would be living is a murderous society. Not everyone has to die.

Quote:
What about lying? Try having communication in a society where lying isn't frowned upon. How could I tell if what you say is true? Why should I bother talking to you if I can't rely on the information being true? Why bother talking at all if this is the case?
I can even point to most western politicians and find lies.

But again, in following from the above, it can be in your interest to lie and decieve your neighbours. I social elite to lie to the entire populace, in turn, transforming the society into a giant lie.

What about when Nietzsche said that truth is only ever said by the ones who have to power to enforce it? I suppose it's your opinion whether or not you know you are telling the truth.

Quote:
Humans in groups, and indeed societies, who do not value life and honesty (just to name a couple) do not do well.
If you value life too much you become paralyized. Everyone is reckless. You will find that Heroic societies find the highest value in life, even though they might not actually be utilitarian.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 13-Apr-2008 at 06:42.
#49  
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(13-Apr-2008 at 10:48)


Re: Grounding of Universal values

Quote:
How about if you were cunning enough to rise to power into a dictatorship of sorts. Say, as a member of the secret police. That would be living is a murderous society. Not everyone has to die.
No, but killing off your allies is going to go against you extremely fast. In the situation you described, you basically have two societies living in the same place. Oppressors and the oppressed.


Quote:
I can even point to most western politicians and find lies.

But again, in following from the above, it can be in your interest to lie and decieve your neighbours. I social elite to lie to the entire populace, in turn, transforming the society into a giant lie.
Then explain why Elliot Spitzer had to quit. Or why Hillary's Bosnia story makes any difference. Perjury, contracts, false advertising, libel, slander, ect. Obviously the majority of what we say isn't a lie.
Quote:

What about when Nietzsche said that truth is only ever said by the ones who have to power to enforce it? I suppose it's your opinion whether or not you know you are telling the truth.
So lies are OK as long as they seem true? What if you found out you had been deceived? Someone needs to be keeping up appearances and when the truth comes out, there will be consequences.

Quote:
If you value life too much you become paralyized. Everyone is reckless. You will find that Heroic societies find the highest value in life, even though they might not actually be utilitarian.
If you don't value life enough you become dead. Moral and legal restrictions on murder reflect our species view of it. Not religions. Before we invented religion we had to agree not to kill each other on a whim. Then we formed groups, then we formed religion.

Mars II - American Scientist
PhD - Physical Chemistry
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(14-Apr-2008 at 03:47)
Re: Grounding of Universal values

Originally Posted by Mars II: View Post
No, but killing off your allies is going to go against you extremely fast. In the situation you described, you basically have two societies living in the same place. Oppressors and the oppressed.
I can kill off my allies if I am cunning enough and willfully perpetuate my status as an oppressor (as least in some eyes). Who needs allies?

Quote:
Then explain why Elliot Spitzer had to quit. Or why Hillary's Bosnia story makes any difference. Perjury, contracts, false advertising, libel, slander, ect. Obviously the majority of what we say isn't a lie.
I would have to say that 90% of our lives are a lie. Or should I say our lifestyles. Material hoarding and empty sexual relations... I can go on. The majority fail to miss the point in a lot of things.

Quote:
So lies are OK as long as they seem true? What if you found out you had been deceived? Someone needs to be keeping up appearances and when the truth comes out, there will be consequences.
There are consequences if A) I get caught and B) the opposing power is stronger than I. And even C) I give a shit.

Quote:
If you don't value life enough you become dead. Moral and legal restrictions on murder reflect our species view of it. Not religions. Before we invented religion we had to agree not to kill each other on a whim. Then we formed groups, then we formed religion.
That depends on if you view morals or laws as an essential function to society, or if they are merely tools for us to further special interests (i.e. liberalism or capitalism). Morality is such a loaded word to a post-christian West, I would not deglect societies of the past who were immoral. Even a few hundred years ago there was little moral restriction outside of Europe. Oh but look, it was the time of greatest economic expansion.

The species only cares about morality when we need to be protected from immoral people. I.e. when natural selection becomes a frightening reality and we'd much prefer to rot in our homes. Morality is not a prerequisite for survival. It's a prerequisite for the weak who have to fall back on abstract means to minimise a life of fear.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 14-Apr-2008 at 03:50.
#51  
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(14-Apr-2008 at 11:13)
Re: Grounding of Universal values

Quote:
I can kill off my allies if I am cunning enough and willfully perpetuate my status as an oppressor (as least in some eyes). Who needs allies?
If your cunning you will ally with the strong and kill off the weak, if you stand alone you will get defeated by the combined strength of your foes sooner or later.

Quote:
That depends on if you view morals or laws as an essential function to society, or if they are merely tools for us to further special interests (i.e. liberalism or capitalism). Morality is such a loaded word to a post-christian West, I would not deglect societies of the past who were immoral. Even a few hundred years ago there was little moral restriction outside of Europe. Oh but look, it was the time of greatest economic expansion.

The species only cares about morality when we need to be protected from immoral people. I.e. when natural selection becomes a frightening reality and we'd much prefer to rot in our homes. Morality is not a prerequisite for survival. It's a prerequisite for the weak who have to fall back on abstract means to minimise a life of fear.
I would object that its the other way round, strong people take a moral position and stand for it, weak people dont stand for their moral position or follow the herd.
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(14-Apr-2008 at 11:46)


Quote:
If your cunning you will ally with the strong and kill off the weak, if you stand alone you will get defeated by the combined strength of your foes sooner or later.
Actually no. It's usually better to use the weak to kill the strong,become the leader of the weak and then kill of anyone who might become strong by presenting him as enemy of the weak.
But the point is you can't just go aroung killing anybody you please. You have to keep the rule and convince your allies that it is necesary. Otherwhise you will last a very short time. To go nostalgic with an old Wheel of Time quote....... On the heights, all paths are paved with daggers.

And the rest seems to be Gott's usual ramblings.......

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 14-Apr-2008 at 11:50.
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(16-Apr-2008 at 08:40)
Great, so your morality is more pragmatic than mine. There's something else you are implying here though.

Morality ultimately depends on time and place, and so it is very specific (following from the pragmatic argument). Logically, then, every given situation ought to have its own slight deviation of the generic 'morality', according to people involved, far-reachness of event being judged and so on and so forth. You know, to make sure we are being pragmatic.

BUT then this would rid us of any concept of 'morality' because as soon as we try to act 'moral' we have to deviate from these values in some form. Therefore, universal values (according to the law of pragmatism) must either be very, very general as to loose all meaning or entail a morality that is both tyrannical and dogmatic.

Give any example and one can apply this law to it and debunk and idea of 'universalness'. All of this talk about 'universal human rights' is just bullshit, as it is presummed on the case that 'this just appears to be the case'. In one, single instance is might start to be, but nothing more; nothing even close to what is claimed in humanist circles.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 16-Apr-2008 at 08:46.
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(16-Apr-2008 at 13:40)


Re: Grounding of Universal values

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Morality ultimately depends on time and place, and so it is very specific (following from the pragmatic argument). Logically, then, every given situation ought to have its own slight deviation of the generic 'morality', according to people involved, far-reachness of event being judged and so on and so forth. You know, to make sure we are being pragmatic.

BUT then this would rid us of any concept of 'morality' because as soon as we try to act 'moral' we have to deviate from these values in some form. Therefore, universal values (according to the law of pragmatism) must either be very, very general as to loose all meaning or entail a morality that is both tyrannical and dogmatic.

Give any example and one can apply this law to it and debunk and idea of 'universalness'. All of this talk about 'universal human rights' is just bullshit, as it is presummed on the case that 'this just appears to be the case'. In one, single instance is might start to be, but nothing more; nothing even close to what is claimed in humanist circles.
Come on Gotts, that morality is context-specific does not imply that it is full-blown relative as you try to paint it here. That the good needs to be interpreted for every situation does not suddenly equate it to non-good. A little less black than pure black does not equate to white. You are thinking in absolute logical opposites where that is not productive.

"this would rid us of any concept of 'morality' because as soon as we try to act 'moral' we have to deviate from these values in some form" is therefore bullshit. That we have to slightly deviate from those morals depending on the situation is exactly how you live up to them; it means doing the right thing by not blindly doing the right thing in a case where that is not the right thing. Not half as complex as it sounds, in fact, a completely reasonable way of living your morality.

I've said it before in this forum, morality is not completely universal, but to conclude based on that that it can only be completely relative and so general as to lose all meaning is stupidity. NOT UNIVERSALLY SHARED, NOT PERSONALLY PARTICULAR; BUT INTER-PERSONAL! The majority of the world's people agree on the majority of moral issues, and debate over a minority of them. Now show me a philosophy that accounts for that social fact, because this boring universalism/relativism regurgitation is getting tiresome. It's time to step outside of the black-and-white mental categories.

Your brain is unique in the history of the universe. Use it wisely.
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