Utopia Temple
Main Forum Page Register an Account for Free! Calendar Frequently Asked Questions about this Board View New Posts Advanced Search Login
  Utopia Temple Forums > General Discussions > Respectable General Discussions > Religious Discussions

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Post New Thread Reply
Author Thread
Posts: 2149/2150
Donated $5.00
(17-Jul-2011 at 18:54)


All Your Religion Belong To Me

With the variations of religion I wonder how those who define themselves as religious can keep on believing. Even in modern history there monotheism is a very new religion.

How do monotheists justify that theirs is the one true religion, when possibly billions of people through history had never even heard of their God?

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence
#1  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Gus Mackay Add Gus Mackay to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 2723/2825
(18-Jul-2011 at 08:17)


Religion is not about justifying it's simply about faith. Blind faith

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
#2  
View Public Profile Find more posts by DHoffryn Add DHoffryn to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 3366/3642
(18-Jul-2011 at 08:35)


Their parents were raised via that religion, they were raised by that religion; something good once happened to them and they attributed it to God... Therefore it must be the correct religion.

If all else fails, call someone a troll.
that can be fixed... / Ζ
#3  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Greeney Add Greeney to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 3897/3983
(18-Jul-2011 at 22:30)


Quote:
never heard of their God
There was this eskimo, he asked his Christian Priest if a man who had not been told about sin and salvation could enter heaven. When the priest said, "Yes", the eskimo said, "Why did you tell us then?"

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
#4  
View Public Profile Find more posts by filcher Add filcher to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1301/1637
(15-Aug-2011 at 13:37)
Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Because belief is more empowering than doubt.
#5  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Gotterdammerung Add Gotterdammerung to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Global Moderator
Posts: 3779/3863
(15-Aug-2011 at 22:08)


Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Because belief is more empowering than doubt.
Those who doubt do not desire empowerment. They desire the truth.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
#6  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Azure Dragon Add Azure Dragon to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1303/1637
(18-Aug-2011 at 08:33)
Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
Those who doubt do not desire empowerment. They desire the truth.
You cannot find any truth in doubt. Truth, for all practical purposes, is the same as personal empowerment.
#7  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Gotterdammerung Add Gotterdammerung to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Global Moderator
Posts: 3785/3863
(19-Aug-2011 at 00:58)


Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
You cannot find any truth in doubt. Truth, for all practical purposes, is the same as personal empowerment.
Your first sentence is incorrect, but the remainder is spot on.

If you doubt something, and explore that doubt, you find the truth.

For example;

A man arrives at your door, and claims he is from the electricity company, and wants to check your meter.

Those who doubt would check his ID, and call the company to confirm it and thus find the truth of whether the man is genuine.

Those who rely on belief run the risk of inviting a dishonest man into their home.

Who is the most empowered in this simplistic, but sadly common, example?

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
#8  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Azure Dragon Add Azure Dragon to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1307/1637
(19-Aug-2011 at 07:39)
Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
Your first sentence is incorrect, but the remainder is spot on.

If you doubt something, and explore that doubt, you find the truth.

For example;

A man arrives at your door, and claims he is from the electricity company, and wants to check your meter.

Those who doubt would check his ID, and call the company to confirm it and thus find the truth of whether the man is genuine.

Those who rely on belief run the risk of inviting a dishonest man into their home.

Who is the most empowered in this simplistic, but sadly common, example?
Firstly, if you doubt something, and explore that doubt, you find more doubt. You have to have confidence is something to find truth in it.

Secondly, if I have condifence in my ability to recognise a scam, then I don't need to doubt anything, I just see it for what it is.

What I am trying to allure to sir is the subtle difference between doubt for the sake of doubt, and confidence in ones ability to find truth. Anything which empowers you brings you closer to the truth. Doubt just slows you down. Discernment is a positive exercise where one tests an assumption, but doubt is the negative in the hope that truth will appear in doubt for doubt's sake.
#9  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Gotterdammerung Add Gotterdammerung to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 6653/7006
(21-Aug-2011 at 11:29)


If I doubt something, and check the facts, why would I find more doubt?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#10  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Voice of Reason Add Voice of Reason to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1314/1637
(23-Aug-2011 at 10:15)
Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
If I doubt something, and check the facts, why would I find more doubt?
You would've done two things there:

1. Doubt
2. Check the facts

When all you need have done is check the facts.

And if you had just doubted, only more doubt would have followed.
#11  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Gotterdammerung Add Gotterdammerung to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 6656/7006
(23-Aug-2011 at 12:50)


The act of checking proves the existence of doubt.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#12  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Voice of Reason Add Voice of Reason to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Global Moderator
Posts: 3786/3863
(23-Aug-2011 at 21:50)


Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
You would've done two things there:

1. Doubt
2. Check the facts

When all you need have done is check the facts.

And if you had just doubted, only more doubt would have followed.
Doubt leads to the idea of checking facts. You might find more doubt if you're not satisfied with those facts, in which case you investigate further.

Yes this does lead to conspiracy theory nutters, but I'd warrant that these extremists are far less dangerous than those extremists who take too much on faith and belief, and have no doubt.

It's fair to say that one needs to be able to believe facts in order get through life, but taking everything you see, read and hear for truth, and not doubting it at best leads to you being taken advantage of, at worst leads to death.

"Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it"

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!

Last edited by Azure Dragon, 23-Aug-2011 at 21:50.
#13  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Azure Dragon Add Azure Dragon to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1315/1637
(23-Aug-2011 at 23:04)
Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
The act of checking proves the existence of doubt.
Glad you pulled me up on that one.

It should be: know the facts. The act of checking infers doubt.

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
Doubt leads to the idea of checking facts. You might find more doubt if you're not satisfied with those facts, in which case you investigate further.

Yes this does lead to conspiracy theory nutters, but I'd warrant that these extremists are far less dangerous than those extremists who take too much on faith and belief, and have no doubt (common sense is not doubt).

It's fair to say that one needs to be able to believe facts in order get through life, but taking everything you see, read and hear for truth, and not doubting it at best leads to you being taken advantage of, at worst leads to death.

"Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it"
But it is not logical to say that without doubt you would not know any facts. If you want to know something, you learn it. If you want to do something, you have confidence in doing it. If you want to find the truth, you find it.

Want comes first in place of doubt. Belief does not make you anymore an extremist than want. Want and belief are necessary. Doubt is not necessary.

The truth, as you are putting it, is some kind of interplay between doubt and belief. I would say that such truth (produced by both doubt and belief) not as strong as truth taken on its own merits. For example, your maxim 'always doubt' does not let you ever acknowledge the facts for what they really are. For you, the universe is highly transitionary without any sense of the absolute. To me, this is less empowering than truth itself. By doubting, you are actually believing that truth does not exist, or if it does, it is transitionary.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 23-Aug-2011 at 23:08.
#14  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Gotterdammerung Add Gotterdammerung to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Global Moderator
Posts: 3789/3863
(24-Aug-2011 at 00:24)


Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
But it is not logical to say that without doubt you would not know any facts. If you want to know something, you learn it. If you want to do something, you have confidence in doing it. If you want to find the truth, you find it.

Want comes first in place of doubt. Belief does not make you anymore an extremist than want. Want and belief are necessary. Doubt is not necessary.
I'll give you that want comes before doubt. You need to want to doubt the "truth" your being presented with before you do the doubting. Those who want to believe a "truth" will believe it regardless of how false it is.

If I am presented with a "fact" or a "truth", I can either accept it at face value, or doubt it, and learn more.


Quote:
The truth, as you are putting it, is some kind of interplay between doubt and belief. I would say that such truth (produced by both doubt and belief) not as strong as truth taken on its own merits. For example, your maxim 'always doubt' does not let you ever acknowledge the facts for what they really are. For you, the universe is highly transitionary without any sense of the absolute. To me, this is less empowering than truth itself.
The universe is very transitory. The world around is constantly changing, people think new and original thoughts, build new things, constantly pushing the boundaries of human knowledge. One hundred years ago it took weeks to traverse continents, now it takes hours. One day people died of small pox, the next a vaccine is found and the disease eradicated.

The only absolute that you can take for granted is your own existence. Everything else can only be an understanding of the evidence available to you. A truth for any one person is only the sum of the evidence they have considered. That truth can always be challenged by additional evidence.

Even within one notion that supposedly is an absolute truth, "God", does the truth actually vary according to who you talk to. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism - all have various interpretations of "God", and even within their own religion have sects, cults and other divisions and disagreements on God. If God were an absolute, there would only be one way to worship God correctly.

Those who look for absolute truths where the truth cannot be absolutely proven do not empower themselves. They might feel like they are, but this is all part of the delusion that actually allows them to be preyed upon by those who would abuse them and their children.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
#15  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Azure Dragon Add Azure Dragon to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1318/1637
(24-Aug-2011 at 01:20)
Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
I'll give you that want comes before doubt. You need to want to doubt the "truth" your being presented with before you do the doubting. Those who want to believe a "truth" will believe it regardless of how false it is.

If I am presented with a "fact" or a "truth", I can either accept it at face value, or doubt it, and learn more.
Suppose that all you did was accept things at face value. You would eventually learn that given any problem there are two or more answers contesting for the truth. If you then wanted to determine which is the right one, how would you do that? Doubt everything? Nope. You would only need to use reason and logic. Once you compare one thing to another, the facts show themselves. There is no need to have doubt on something that is already demonstrably wrong.

Quote:
The universe is very transitory. The world around is constantly changing, people think new and original thoughts, build new things, constantly pushing the boundaries of human knowledge. One hundred years ago it took weeks to traverse continents, now it takes hours. One day people died of small pox, the next a vaccine is found and the disease eradicated.

The only absolute that you can take for granted is your own existence. Everything else can only be an understanding of the evidence available to you. A truth for any one person is only the sum of the evidence they have considered. That truth can always be challenged by additional evidence.

Even within one notion that supposedly is an absolute truth, "God", does the truth actually vary according to who you talk to. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism - all have various interpretations of "God", and even within their own religion have sects, cults and other divisions and disagreements on God. If God were an absolute, there would only be one way to worship God correctly.
This is a great question. How does one determine which, amongst all variations of "God", is the correct one? If you are exposed to any of these interpretations you would be challenged to compare it to others. However, you don't have to. So the reason that there are so many variations is that a great deal of people simply refuse to take the notion of "God" to its logical end. And you know what, I suspect that even if they did, it would be nigh impossible to make a decisive ruling one way or another. I'm sure people have tried, see Muhammad (pbuh), whom probably stands as the most successful commentator on the matter.

Now, to the original question, which "God" is the right one. Well, that involves a deep theologically investigation, and comparing every single variation, every concievable variation, as well as a readiness to compare to variations which arise in the future. At this moment I don't know which God is the right one, but if I was on my way I would be actively involved in the investigation thereof and be willing to constantly compare my reasoning with others.

Quote:
Those who look for absolute truths where the truth cannot be absolutely proven do not empower themselves.
I would assume that absolute truth exists until it is shown to be unobtainable. Unlikely, challenging...maybe. But still a plausible pathway.

Quote:
They might feel like they are, but this is all part of the delusion that actually allows them to be preyed upon by those who would abuse them and their children.
In some cases, but in general I feel this is a bit of a cheap shot.
#16  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Gotterdammerung Add Gotterdammerung to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Global Moderator
Posts: 3792/3863
(24-Aug-2011 at 02:09)


Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Suppose that all you did was accept things at face value. You would eventually learn that given any problem there are two or more answers contesting for the truth. If you then wanted to determine which is the right one, how would you do that? Doubt everything? Nope. You would only need to use reason and logic. Once you compare one thing to another, the facts show themselves. There is no need to have doubt on something that is already demonstrably wrong.
Some people hold to a truth that is demonstrably wrong, and it is caused by a fear to doubt. For someone to demonstrate something as wrong, they must first doubt the truth of it.

Quote:
This is a great question. How does one determine which, amongst all variations of "God", is the correct one? If you are exposed to any of these interpretations you would be challenged to compare it to others. However, you don't have to. So the reason that there are so many variations is that a great deal of people simply refuse to take the notion of "God" to its logical end. And you know what, I suspect that even if they did, it would be nigh impossible to make a decisive ruling one way or another. I'm sure people have tried, see Muhammad (pbuh), whom probably stands as the most successful commentator on the matter.
To consider the notion of "God" and take it to it's logical end, you must ask the question "how did god come into being?".

Quote:
Now, to the original question, which "God" is the right one. Well, that involves a deep theologically investigation, and comparing every single variation, every concievable variation, as well as a readiness to compare to variations which arise in the future. At this moment I don't know which God is the right one, but if I was on my way I would be actively involved in the investigation thereof and be willing to constantly compare my reasoning with others.
But the fact remains that the truth you find would be your own, but still not absolute.



Quote:
I would assume that absolute truth exists until it is shown to be unobtainable. Unlikely, challenging...maybe. But still a plausible pathway.
Why would you assume anything can be proven beyond your own existence. You can't disprove your own existence, since you wouldn't exist to disprove your existence. In short, "I think, therefore I am". The fact you exist to disproves any doubt that you don't.

Everything else I perceive could be just a figment of my own imagination, and not really exist at all. I doubt that to be true, since I suspect that if I exist as a conciousness walking around in a human body, then others I interact with are also conciousnesses walking around in human bodies. I can't prove or disprove this notion that the world is a figment of my imagination. While I accept the truth that is not a figment of my imagination, I do not hold it up as an example of an absolute truth.



Quote:
In some cases, but in general I feel this is a bit of a cheap shot.
The last few words were a cheap shot, but overall the sentence is true. Take the Roman Catholic church, one of the richest organisations in the world, with some of the most opulent buildings known to man, while the vast majority of Catholics are poor. The wealth of the Church comes from the pockets of those who bought into the "absolute truth" of the Catholic religion.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!

Last edited by Azure Dragon, 24-Aug-2011 at 02:12.
#17  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Azure Dragon Add Azure Dragon to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1321/1637
(24-Aug-2011 at 03:14)
Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
Everything else I perceive could be just a figment of my own imagination, and not really exist at all. I doubt that to be true, since I suspect that if I exist as a conciousness walking around in a human body, then others I interact with are also conciousnesses walking around in human bodies. I can't prove or disprove this notion that the world is a figment of my imagination. While I accept the truth that is not a figment of my imagination, I do not hold it up as an example of an absolute truth.
Actually, if you ask the question: does God exist? Whatever the responce, the answer must be in the absolute, given the absolute nature of the question. So, there's an example of absolute truth, which you may or may not recognise as such.

To restate: Absolute truth is obtainable, the problem is in recognising it.
#18  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Gotterdammerung Add Gotterdammerung to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 2735/2825
(24-Aug-2011 at 12:10)


Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Actually, if you ask the question: does God exist? Whatever the responce, the answer must be in the absolute, given the absolute nature of the question. So, there's an example of absolute truth, which you may or may not recognise as such.

To restate: Absolute truth is obtainable, the problem is in recognising it.

That's only if you accept the abrahaimic notion of one omnipowerful god(or considering they quite likely ripped it off the Egyptians, the Egyptian notion) Why would we do this considering the diversity of spiritual belifs on Earth? Especially considering that other religions especially in the East have produced far more impressive results and philosophies?.

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 24-Aug-2011 at 12:12.
#19  
View Public Profile Find more posts by DHoffryn Add DHoffryn to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Global Moderator
Posts: 3793/3863
(24-Aug-2011 at 23:07)


Re: All Your Religion Belong To Me

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Actually, if you ask the question: does God exist? Whatever the responce, the answer must be in the absolute, given the absolute nature of the question. So, there's an example of absolute truth, which you may or may not recognise as such.

To restate: Absolute truth is obtainable, the problem is in recognising it.
OK. If someone were to ask me whether I know whether god exists, I would answer in short "I don't know for sure, but the evidence suggests to me that he doesn't"

That isn't an absolute answer - the question has only one absolute answer, and that would be for god, if god exists, to simultaneously reveal itself to every living being. Otherwise, the answer to the existance of god can not be an absolute truth, either way. There is simply considering the evidence for and against, which brings us back to my question: "How did god come into being?"

Is it really any more absurd to consider that the universe spontaneously burst into existence, than to consider an omnipotent intelligence spontaneously burst into existence and proceeded to create the rest of the universe?

The answer that question is just as unanswerable as the existance of god. The truth can only come from weighing up the evidence. Personally I've considered the various different religions in the world, and weighed it up against the evidence that scientific investigation of the physical world has come up with, and arrived at the current conculusion that if god exists, it isn't in the form preached about by the major religions of the world.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
#20  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Azure Dragon Add Azure Dragon to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump:

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Falsity of Religion: Twelve Indisputable Arguments AsianAmerican Religious Discussions 54 27-Aug-2005 14:08
The illogic of religion Gus Mackay Religious Discussions 46 05-Aug-2005 12:28
Why is religion taken serious in some parts of the world? draconis84 Polls Heaven 30 24-Apr-2005 07:46
On the topic of Evangilism and Finding your religion. pump Religious Discussions 17 31-Jul-2004 11:13
So take a look at this bill that's going through the house... Erik64 Respectable General Discussions 34 03-Apr-2004 06:23


All times are GMT+1. The time now is 16:36.

Powered by vBulletin (modified)
Copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.