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Posts: 1345/1637
(08-Sep-2011 at 06:07)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Then how was it discovered, if it didn't already exist to big discovered?
I'm not taking objective reality for granted.

Consciousness created Everest. This is the same as 'discovery'.

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It still existed, whether you know it or not.
Knowledge has nothing to do with it. Knowledge is not the same as consciousness. It is possible to be consciousness of something whilst having no knowledge of it (eg. when you experience something for the first time). However - and this is the whole point of what I am saying - it is not possible that something exists outside of consciousness. Period.

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...i didn't know my wife existed until I met her, but she really did exist. There is a birth certificate and photos and eyewitnesses and loads of stuff to prove it.
Your wife existed because she was conscious of herself.

If there was no one conscious of Everest, then it didn't exist.

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Existence is not subjective.
The term 'existence' is theoretical. It is optimistic. You must have faith that reality is something that is sustained outside of consciousness. Faith is subjective, therefore to say that 'existence is not subjective' is a bit of a fantasy. WHICH IS FINE. I am happy for you to believe in a fantasy (it is necessary for today's world to work), but I would hope that you would understand that it was a fantasy.

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Satellites and round-the-world sailors say you are wrong. We live on a big ball, that is an absolutely correct fact, and you don't get any preference in the matter.
The notion of absolute rest was dumped by physics over 100 years ago in favor of relativity.

Absolutely, I can comfortably state that the earth is flat. Our observations on gravity and space-time don't demonstrate that the earth is round, only why it appears to be round.

Consciousness only experiences a single time-line, and likewise a single space-line. This is my reasoning for a flat earth. It's impossible to experience the world as a 'big ball', but only as a continual slide show of flat-earths.
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Posts: 3802/3863
(08-Sep-2011 at 23:57)


Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Reality and consciousness are intertwined. There is no way to show that reality stands alone outside of consciousness. Because if you arn't conscious, reality doesn't exist.
No, coma patients arn't concious, but still exist.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
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Posts: 1346/1637
(09-Sep-2011 at 01:27)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
No, coma patients arn't concious, but still exist.
They exist because you are conscious of them.

If no one is conscious of a coma patient, they don't exist until they reawake.

That said, sleep (and perhaps even coma) do not usually leave the consciousness totally unaware of its thoughts and surroundings. In cases where they are fully unconscious (no brain activity) and no one is their to witness them, they do not exist.
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Posts: 1347/1637
(09-Sep-2011 at 02:06)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
No need to go back. I mean really no need



Why would it differ?


Huh?


Not really. If anything it's the opposite. A single consciousness would be a very fickle thing. I mean us humans cna barely concentrate on one thing and and with someone higher it would be even worse. Now a lot of lower consciousness would have an easier time sustaining one permanent pattern. Kinda like fish and birds do



No they don't. Mathamtics and science in general don't really bother with theory like yours except for a few minor exceptions who just like to talk mostly.
Yes, well, my original post wasn't an outright argument for the existance in God, but a comparison that the belief in an objective universe was equal in faith to that of a belief in God.

Seeing as though we agree on this point, I am happy to leave it there. I haven't really left myself open to positive argument about God, only about the nature of the belief (which is similar to belief in an objective universe).
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Posts: 6675/7006
(09-Sep-2011 at 13:31)


Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Reality and consciousness are intertwined. There is no way to show that reality stands alone outside of consciousness. Because if you arn't conscious, reality doesn't exist.
It is shown every time some previously unknown thing is discovered. If it is unknown, then nobody was conscious of it, and according to you didn't exist - yet it is still discovered. That can happen only if the object was real *before* it was discovered, and therefore before anyone was conscious of it.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(Posted as Randomized)
Posts: 398/469
(09-Sep-2011 at 15:33)


Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
It is shown every time some previously unknown thing is discovered. If it is unknown, then nobody was conscious of it, and according to you didn't exist - yet it is still discovered. That can happen only if the object was real *before* it was discovered, and therefore before anyone was conscious of it.
basicly my point with the jungle village analogy.
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Posts: 1349/1637
(09-Sep-2011 at 23:58)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
It is shown every time some previously unknown thing is discovered. If it is unknown, then nobody was conscious of it, and according to you didn't exist - yet it is still discovered. That can happen only if the object was real *before* it was discovered, and therefore before anyone was conscious of it.
Consciousness created it. It wasn't 'discovered' because consciousness created it. It didn't exist previously because consciousness created it.

Consciousness is the reason anything seems to 'exist'. Nothing 'exists' outside of consciousness because it creates everything.

You will find it impossible to show what existed before someone (or thing) conscious of it, because nothing did exist before someone (or thing) was consious of it, therefore consciousness creates existance.

The perception of 'discovery' shows nothing other than new things appearing in our awareness. So either objective reality exists, or consciousness creates everything we experience. The problem is, there is no evidence of objective reality because consciousness is always the author of it.
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Posts: 6678/7006
(10-Sep-2011 at 06:45)


Quote:
Consciousness created it. It wasn't 'discovered' because consciousness created it. It didn't exist previously because consciousness created it.
How can consciousness create something it is not conscious of? That is a logical contradiction.


Quote:
The perception of 'discovery' shows nothing other than new things appearing in our awareness.
To appear in our awareness, they must exist *before* we become aware of them.


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The problem is, there is no evidence of objective reality because consciousness is always the author of it.
Every new discovery proves objective reality. Every time an archeologist digs something out of the ground it proves objective reality. Every time a scientist discovers a new particle it proves objective reality. Every time an astronomer discovers a new planet/star/asteroid/whatever it proves objective reality. If they didn't exist before anyone was conscious of them, they wouldn't be lying around waiting to be discovered.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#28  
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Posts: 1351/1637
(11-Sep-2011 at 02:55)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
How can consciousness create something it is not conscious of? That is a logical contradiction.

To appear in our awareness, they must exist *before* we become aware of them.

Every new discovery proves objective reality. Every time an archeologist digs something out of the ground it proves objective reality. Every time a scientist discovers a new particle it proves objective reality. Every time an astronomer discovers a new planet/star/asteroid/whatever it proves objective reality. If they didn't exist before anyone was conscious of them, they wouldn't be lying around waiting to be discovered.
Consciousness is expansive. It creates as it goes. You have to get your head around this: if there was no such thing as objective reality, there is no contradiction, because this would mean creation is conscousness and consciousness is creative.

Alternatively, there could be a first consciousness from which all creation stems, i.e. God.

All the more there is no evidence of objective reality.
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(11-Sep-2011 at 08:18)


There is plenty of evidence for objective reality. You just don't want to hear it.

Lets stop pissing around: explain, specifically and without waffling, how something that doesn't exist can be discovered. Until you can do that, you have no argument.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#30  
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Posts: 1354/1637
(12-Sep-2011 at 00:07)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
There is plenty of evidence for objective reality. You just don't want to hear it.
There only evidence you have of so-called objective reality is what your consciousness produces for you. So until you can remove consciousness from everything you imply as 'objective', I'm not having a bar of it. Oh wait, it's impossible to do that. The truth is that you cannot seperate consciousness from 'objectivity', because the two, when applied, are really indistinguishable.

Quote:
Lets stop pissing around: explain, specifically and without waffling, how something that doesn't exist can be discovered. Until you can do that, you have no argument.
Then we have no argument. 'Discovery' assumes the myth of there being something out there existing in a mystical land of objectivity external to consciousness. This is a faith-based notion.

The basic truth is that reality begins and ends with consciousness. The only position that can be pasted onto this is faith-based.
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Posts: 6686/7006
(12-Sep-2011 at 11:36)


Quote:
Then we have no argument.
Correction: *you* have no argument, because...


Quote:
'Discovery' assumes the myth of there being something out there existing in a mystical land of objectivity external to consciousness. This is a faith-based notion.
... discovery proves that things do exist, whether you are conscious of them or not, which is why you are unable to explain how things can be discovered in your 'if I am not conscious of it doesn't exist' fantasy.

Get over yourself; things exist regardless of you knowing about them. The universe does not revolve around you.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#32  
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Posts: 1356/1637
(12-Sep-2011 at 12:07)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Correction: *you* have no argument, because...




... discovery proves that things do exist, whether you are conscious of them or not, which is why you are unable to explain how things can be discovered in your 'if I am not conscious of it doesn't exist' fantasy.

Get over yourself; things exist regardless of you knowing about them. The universe does not revolve around you.
In that case it should be easy for you to show me what an Everest looks like outside of consciousness. But you cannot, because it's impossible, because there is nothing to show, because nothing exists there.

You'll be doing jack-all 'discovering' while you're unconscious. I wonder why that is? Hmmm...
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(12-Sep-2011 at 12:42)


Why are you finding "...things do exist, whether you are conscious of them or not" so difficult to understand? The huge logical hole in your argument is your unsupported, unproven, assertion that not conscious of = it doesn't exist, when even the simple act of discovery proves your assumption wrong.

As does the fact that the world existed before you were born, and will continue to do so when you die...

Now... since you refuse to explain how the act of discovery can possibly happen in your world, lets try another tack. Prove your premise, that me not being conscious of something means it doesn't exist. There are whole countries full of people I am not conscious of, but they still exist, and I meet new people every day without being conscious of them before meeting them, yet they must have existed because they are not newborn. Explain how that happens.


Quote:
In that case it should be easy for you to show me what an Everest looks like outside of consciousness.
An utterly irrelevant circular argument in which the premise is the conclusion. It still exists, whether I can describe it or not.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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Posts: 1374/1637
(21-Sep-2011 at 06:38)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
An utterly irrelevant circular argument in which the premise is the conclusion.
This applies to both of us. Everything you have said I can shoot straight back at you. You say that objective reality exists because, well, 'it just does'.

Just as my original post states.
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Posts: 6708/7006
(21-Sep-2011 at 07:00)


Not at all. Objective reality *must* exist for the act of discovery could not happen, which it quite clearly does.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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Posts: 1375/1637
(22-Sep-2011 at 00:40)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Not at all. Objective reality *must* exist for the act of discovery could not happen, which it quite clearly does.
No it doesn't. Discovery is just your interpretation of the experience of new things. Just because you haven't experienced something before doesn't mean it has always existed.
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Posts: 6721/7006
(23-Sep-2011 at 03:13)


It is not an interpretation of anything.

I lift a rock. There, waving at me, is an amazing new species of beetle. It has never been seen before, so at the instant of discovery it is not part of human consciousness. Yet there it is, existing outside human consciousness in defiance of you.

Or are you suggesting that my mind is so incredibly powerful that I created that beetle out of nothing?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#38  
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Posts: 1380/1637
(23-Sep-2011 at 04:06)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

One small point before we continue: you seem to have been ignoring that there are multiple consciousness. If you personally arn't consciousness of something, it may still exist via another consciousness not your own. I just want you to be aware of that possibility as we discuss this.

Now:

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Or are you suggesting that my mind is so incredibly powerful that I created that beetle out of nothing?
Why not?

There is evidence of it because consciousness is necessary to 'discover' something. Why must it exist externally to consciousness? You can't know that. Why cannot our own mind or another just bring things into existance? It seems rediculous on the face of it, but you will find it impossible to dismiss.

Whereas I can easily deny objective reality because it immediately disappears outside of consciousness. You can pretend it still exists because it is useful to think of reality in that way, but under examination, this is a completely made up notion.
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Posts: 1386/1637
(25-Sep-2011 at 23:58)
Consciousness creates and sustains reality, and that creative force is God.
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