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Posts: 1405/1637
(14-Oct-2011 at 03:43)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
It has, but your mind is too closed to accept it.

It has shown itself by being a logical necessity. Necessary for your consciousness to have a place in which to exist. Necessary for discovery to be possible. Necessary for more than one consciousness to exist. It is proven by the earth existing before anything conscious existed on it, and by the entire universe existing before anything conscious lived in it.
This is simply wrong. There is no such proof. It is simply your impression. You are confusing the various fields of science with an overall theory of the universe. There is never proof of such a leap.

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Now, where is your proof that the universe doesn't exist? I keep asking for it and you refuse give any, because your argument is faith based.
It is impossible for you to show that anything existed prior to anyone being conscious of it, all you can do is show an impression of a thing AFTER you have become conscious of its existance. Therefore, the universe begins with consciousness.

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In which case the camera can't have created that new star it photographed, in which the case the star must exist independently of anyone being conscious of it.
I never said anything about cameras creating new stars.

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I don't ignore electrons. I ignore your assertion that electrons moving proves that cause and effect doesn't exist. I asked you to explain that, and you haven't.
O.K. not only do electrons move, but they do so in an unpredictable fashion. Unpredictable, as in, the effect cannot be correlated to the cause, i.e. there is no objective path of an electron.

There are two responces to this Uncertainty, either there exists some objectivity out there that we are not yet away of (now this is faith, sir), or that reality is indeed created by the observer, i.e. by consciousness (as shown by quantum physics)

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It was caused by time.
It was caused by probability.
It is a meaningless question because cause and effect needs a universe in which to operate.

Take your pick.
Ah, no.

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That is still a faith based argument in which you are using the conclusion as an argument for itself - the second clause is nothing but a paraphrase of the first!

If you are going to say "... since creation cannot exist outside of consciousness" you first have to prove that, and you haven't.
I can give you a thought experiment.

Suppose earth is hit by a massive rock and no one lives. Also suppose that humans were the only consciousness in the universe. How, then, could the universe exist if it was not conscious of itself? You would expect that it would, intuitively, but intuition is wrong. Without a consciousness, the univese is unknown, and 'existance' is meaningless, it is a terminated concept, and existance unexists.

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No. He is a scientist, which is why he accepts objective reality.
Kaku believes in the multiverse theory, of there being infinite realities, therefore, no, he doesn't accept a single 'objective' reality.

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Notice how he doesn't say the universe doesn't really exist.
Yes he does, he said the objective cause and effect universe doesn't exist. 'God plays dice'.

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Notice how he doesn't say cause and effect doesn't exist.
Yes, he does, he said that the following was WRONG:

"The universe is a clock, wound up at the beginning of time"

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Your Quantum Mystic video ~ "Everytime we look at an electron, it moves, so it could be anywhere in the universe"
Strictly this is true. It is impossible to determine the position of an electron in between observations.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 14-Oct-2011 at 03:44.
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(14-Oct-2011 at 07:22)


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This is simply wrong. There is no such proof.
It is proven by our planet existing before any conscious life lived on it, and by the universe existing before any conscious life existed in it.

Where is your proof that it didn't? I keep asking for you to provide it, and you keep failing to do so.


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It is impossible for you to show that anything existed prior to anyone being conscious of it
It is not impossible. It is very easy. Science has done it conclusively. It is also a logical necessity for existence to be independent of whether you know about it or not, on three different counts.

You are *still* pushing a faith based argument that "I don't know about it = it doesn't exist", without proving that this is the case or even giving any rational reason to believe it.


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I never said anything about cameras creating new stars.
Yet that camera, that you now agree can't have created a new star, can still take a photograph of it. Therefore, the star must have objective existence.


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O.K. not only do electrons move, but they do so in an unpredictable fashion. Unpredictable, as in, the effect cannot be correlated to the cause
Unpredictable does not mean no cause and effect. Your quantum mysticism is stopping you from understanding what scientists are talking about. You seem to think an electron is a little ball orbiting a nucleus, just like a planet orbiting a sun, only smaller.

In your opinion, is light a form of electromagnetic radiation, or a stream of photons?


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Ah, no.
Blank denial. Good argument.


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How, then, could the universe exist if it was not conscious of itself?
Very easily. In exactly the same way it existed without anything being conscious of it before life existed.


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Without a consciousness, the univese is unknown
So what? Unknown does not mean doesn't exist.


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Kaku believes in the multiverse theory, of there being infinite realities, therefore, no, he doesn't accept a single 'objective' reality.
Okay... so he accepts multiple objective realities. He still doesn't agree with your epistemological solipsism.


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Yes, he does
Where? Give me the time where he says that.

He is talking about determinism and free will, not about cause and effect...


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Strictly this is true. It is impossible to determine the position of an electron in between observations.
It is not true by any stretch of the imagination. We know the electron is in the atom we are looking at, and not hanging out by itself somewhere near Alpha Centauri. Your quantum mysticism is about as sensible as saying "I am not sure exactly where in the bookshelf my book is, therefore it could be anywhere in the universe."

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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Posts: 1407/1637
(15-Oct-2011 at 08:20)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
It is proven by our planet existing before any conscious life lived on it, and by the universe existing before any conscious life existed in it.

Where is your proof that it didn't? I keep asking for you to provide it, and you keep failing to do so.
Here's a shotgun.

Tell me what exists in the universe when your cranium is gone.

Intuitively, you expect the world to continue, but as you can see this is literally an untenable position.

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It is not impossible. It is very easy. Science has done it conclusively. It is also a logical necessity for existence to be independent of whether you know about it or not, on three different counts.

You are *still* pushing a faith based argument that "I don't know about it = it doesn't exist", without proving that this is the case or even giving any rational reason to believe it.
Let me ask you this: if you can't measure something, you can't sense it in anyway, but intuitively insist that it really does exist out there somewhere; what is that? Is that science?

It's not. Things that no conscious mind grasps, are not scientific things. Indeed, the objective universe is not scientific, because it cannot be completely grasped. Onl segments of reality can be measured, giving us an impression of objectivity, but in total, it has never been observed. Therefore, objectivity is a byproduct of the intuition, but intuition is wrong, and it is not scientific.

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Yet that camera, that you now agree can't have created a new star, can still take a photograph of it. Therefore, the star must have objective existence.
Not if consciousness produced the camera AND the picture AND the star.

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Unpredictable does not mean no cause and effect.
It means that the electon has no objective path, which is what you are arguing for.

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You seem to think an electron is a little ball orbiting a nucleus, just like a planet orbiting a sun, only smaller.
That's a fair analogy for all practical purposes.

If I'm completely wrong, which I'm not, please explain how this might affect my argument about electrons and measuring their position.

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So what? Unknown does not mean doesn't exist.
Unknown means it could be anywhere and no where.

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Okay... so he accepts multiple objective realities. He still doesn't agree with your epistemological solipsism.
Maybe not. But this man has a reputation as an expert, I do not. I can afford to take division positions. This doesn't, however, mean I am wrong. I use the same theories, just drawn a more specialized conclusion.

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He is talking about determinism and free will, not about cause and effect...
If determinism is wrong, and there is such thing as free will, then yes, it absolutely has to do with cause and effect. It means that the objective, predetermined path of CAUSE AND EFFECT CAN BE CHANGED.

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We know the electron is in the atom we are looking at, and not hanging out by itself somewhere near Alpha Centauri.
Who is 'we'? It completely viable theory.

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Your quantum mysticism is about as sensible as saying "I am not sure exactly where in the bookshelf my book is, therefore it could be anywhere in the universe."
Well, if the bookcase is an atom, and a book is an electron, then this analogy is accurate.

Things on the quantum level act differently than objects on the macro scale.

You do realise that to average quantum physics this view is causally accepted.
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(15-Oct-2011 at 09:59)


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Here's a shotgun.

Tell me what exists in the universe when your cranium is gone.
Everything except my cranium.


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Let me ask you this: if you can't measure something, you can't sense it in anyway, but intuitively insist that it really does exist out there somewhere; what is that? Is that science?
That is called 'unknown'. Your insistence that unknown=doesn't exist is what makes yours a faith-based argument.


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Not if consciousness produced the camera AND the picture AND the star.
Consciousness cannot produce something it hasn't discovered yet, such as the star the camera photographed, which is why the act of discovery proves objective reality.


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It means that the electon has no objective path, which is what you are arguing for.
No it doesn't, because...


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That's a fair analogy for all practical purposes.
... that is a quantum mystic's analogy, not a scientist's. You are completely wrong, and your argument that the unpredictability of an electron's 'orbit' proves that cause and effect don't exist is nonsense, because...


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If I'm completely wrong, which I'm not, please explain how this might affect my argument about electrons and measuring their position.
... electrons are not little balls (Made of what? Even smaller atoms?) orbiting a nucleus. They are an electric charge, a wave, that forms a shell around the nucleus and sometimes appears to behave a discrete component, in the same way that light sometime behaves as electromagnetic radiation and sometimes as discrete photons. The reason that an electron's 'orbit' is unpredictable is that it doesn't really have one - except to quantum mystics with schoolboy ideas about atoms.


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Unknown means it could be anywhere and no where.
To be anywhere, it has to exist. Objectively.


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If determinism is wrong, and there is such thing as free will, then yes, it absolutely has to do with cause and effect. It means that the objective, predetermined path of CAUSE AND EFFECT CAN BE CHANGED.
No it doesn't. Firstly because most objects in the universe are inanimate and have no free-will. Secondly because free-will changes nothing - gravity causes stuff to fall, and I would love to see you free-will your way out of that happening. Thirdly because there is no 'predetermined path' between cause and effect.


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Who is 'we'? It completely viable theory.
'We' as in people who are not blinded by quantum mysticism; and it is a nonsensical theory. If you think atoms have no electrons inside them until somebody looks, because they are all out partying near Alpha Centauri, then prove it.

The list of things you can't prove or explain just got longer...

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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