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Posts: 7004/7006
(04-Aug-2012 at 15:23)


Quote:
To this day the existance of Dark Matter remains theoretical. It has never been observed directly by science.
"If we can't see it, it doesn't exist". Not the most logical of arguments.


Quote:
if an event was to somehow break the laws of nature, like the big bang
The Big Bang doesn't break any laws of nature. It is required by the laws of nature. It is observing nature that says "hey... it must all have started with a big bang".

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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Posts: 3846/3863
(04-Aug-2012 at 16:24)


Re: Miracles are not repeatable (not scientific)

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
To this day the existance of Dark Matter remains theoretical. It has NOT YET been observed directly by science.
Fixed.

You don't necessarily need to directly observe something to theorise it's existence.

Quote:
Therefore, more to the point, if an event was to somehow break the laws of nature, like the big bang, whoses effects continued ambiguously through unexplainable forces like those caused by Dark Matter, then the existance of miracles are not only plausible but fundamental to the workings of the universe. If, at all, the universe can be observed to work illogically, which it continues to be, then by this very fact the laws of nature must be non-essential, and therefore breakable, modified or otherwise non-causally effected.
If the Big Bang event created the universe to which the "laws of nature" apply, then the actual event itself need not have been subject to those specific laws. You might suggest that the Big Bang event itself was a miracle, but there is no evidence to suggest that the event itself broke any laws of nature that were applicable to it.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

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Last edited by Azure Dragon, 04-Aug-2012 at 16:29.
#22  
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Posts: 31/31
(04-Aug-2012 at 22:20)
Re: Miracles are not repeatable (not scientific)

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
If that is true, then someone who says "If such miraculous *forces* like dark *matter* exist..." absolutely doesn't realise they are talking about matter and not a force.
It's obvious he was using the word "force" the same way someone uses it in the phrase "force of nature." I'm no dictionary, but I'm sure there are multiple definitions for the word. You understood this when you read his post, but decided to be difficult.

Quote:
Show me the force that is independent of energy. If there is a dark force, there must be a dark energy. If there is no dark force, there is no dark energy.
The whole idea of dark energy has been hypothesized to account for a force causing the universe to expand faster than it should, so the concepts are invariably linked. My point was that the term "dark force" takes a remote backseat in usage compared to "dark energy" and so your suggestion that he was confused between dark matter and dark forces was off-base, since he never referred to dark forces to begin with.
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Posts: 1625/1637
(05-Aug-2012 at 04:18)
Re: Miracles are not repeatable (not scientific)

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
"If we can't see it, it doesn't exist". Not the most logical of arguments.
Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
You don't necessarily need to directly observe something to theorise it's existence.
Like miracles.

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
The Big Bang doesn't break any laws of nature. It is required by the laws of nature. It is observing nature that says "hey... it must all have started with a big bang".
I agree that the causal chain is clear enough to reason that there was some kind of explosion in matter, but the event itself is baffling to us and totally exceptional in nature, since, I only recall the big bang happening once.

Since the big bang is an exceptional event, then its total influence, i.e. everything, must contain exceptionality, that is, if the big bang was an uncaused event then it must have set in motion a world which, by its very nature, is subject to uncaused causes.

This means that miracles are possible, i.e. that there could plausibily be totally spontaneous, uncaused events pop out of the nether, that in turn set in motion other events to effect an otherwise closed-curcuit (as commonly understood) universe.

Miracles are just like the big bang, but more like ripples of the big bang. The big bang proves to us that nature is fundamentally unstable and uncaused, prone to regular laws of causality being broken, i.e. miracles.

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
You might suggest that the Big Bang event itself was a miracle, but there is no evidence to suggest that the event itself broke any laws of nature that were applicable to it.
Which law of physics are you refering to that necessitates a singularity of matter to non-causally pop into existance and rapidly expand by a factor of at least 10 to the power of 20?
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