[Grashnak]

Last year my wife & I concieved twice both times the fetus died. The first time the pregnancy was some way in & so took quite some time & a huge amount of pain & blood for my wifes body to expel the unborn child.

Why would God kill my unborn children do you guys think ? Were their thoughts (if they even had any) immoral and so deserved death as the wages of sin ? It cannot be anything to do with our athiestic lives since 'the sins of thy father are not thine own'.

BTW - hats off to any of the faithful who can answer this question well.

[Gotterdammerung]

First off, I am sorry to hear what has happened.

No one here can tell you 'why' exactly God took your children, especially when trying to explain to someone who doesn't necessarily believe in God in the first place (correct me if I am wrong). The answer for the faithful would be that God knows best and faith is the answer to overcoming the question of 'why.' All there is is faith.

[Isouttahere]

ah Grashnak, I am sorry to hear about your loss of two children. My brother died of cot-death before I was born so although I cannot personally know how it feels, my mum certainly can.

From what I can see, you're asking the age-old question about why there is death and pain in our world. I haven't done any study or read any books on the topic (incedentially, the next book of my 'to-read list' is How Long oh Lord, by D. A. Carson, which is about reflections on suffering and evil.)

But the simple answer is: because we live in a fallen world.

My advice would be to seek out some councelling with a christian minister, or even to ask a few questions. If they are worth their salt, they should be able explain with a far greater degree of ability than people such as myself on a board such as this one.

Perhaps I will be able to give you a more in-depth answer when I chew my way through this book. rather than speaking out of ignorance, as alot of people tend to do.

[Gus Mackay]

It's unfortunate that these things happen. But that's because we don't live in a perfect world and we have turned our backs on God. God originally intended Earth to be a paradise but we screwed up, and we now have sin, death, plague and pestilence.

God didn't kill your unborn children. That's just the bad nature of the world we live in.

[Bernel]

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay:

It's unfortunate that these things happen. But that's because we don't live in a perfect world and we have turned our backs on God. God originally intended Earth to be a paradise but we screwed up, and we now have sin, death, plague and pestilence.

Those bacteria and parasites didn't just happen. If God created everything else he created them too. On purpose. Just as he created that tree of knowledge and put it in Eden. On purpose. We didn't just screw up, Gud rigged the game so that we would screw up. If God doesn't want us to turn his back to him, why doesn't he show himself so we know which way to turn? It's hard to be sure not to turn your back on the invisible man!

Horrible things happen because there is no God, because God wants it to happen, or because he just doesn't care. Based on the ingenuity of some parasites I must say that God seems to have taken a certain perverted pleasure in coming up with ways to torment us.

[Gus Mackay]

That's not what happened originally. When God withdrew following the fall, the Earth was left to sin. Everything bad has come from that.

In regards to the tree of knowledge being present there, I don't doubt that it was a test.

[Lord Menchalior]

My condolences Grashnak, death is always a tradical, death of new born or unborn is something I cannot even think of how much pain that would bring to someone.

Have you heard test of Job? He went that exact things thru and worse. Job was obidient servant of God as you are atheist, but it doesn't mean god would not test peoples who have abandoned him, as God never abandon's a person.

There are two sides fighting from our souls I believe. Devil and God. And they both test peoples to see how they endure the hardhips and what is their reaction...

But I believe that your unborn child is now a better place. As all kids are born innocent... I know these word's will not comfort you much. But your questions are same that have plagued mankind's since dawn of time... Why... Nobody cannot answer that for you. You must find that answer yourself...

[Bernel]

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay:

That's not what happened originally. When God withdrew following the fall, the Earth was left to sin. Everything bad has come from that.

I thought you were a creationist? Do I remember wrong? How can entire branches of the animal kingdom have appeared by themselves if you don't believe in evolution?

I saw something about a totally wierd discussion on a Christian forum about predators not having existed before the fall combined with the knowledge that the were predators in the Cambrian, thus leading someone to the conclusion that the fall really took place in precamprian days.

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In regards to the tree of knowledge being present there, I don't doubt that it was a test.

God created humans with curiosity. He must have realised that given enough time sooner or later we would give in to temptation. If God didn't intend this he is stupid, which sort of contradicts the assumptions of what a God is supposed to be like.

Besides, why this extreme test? Why not just give us a slap on the fingers, "I told you not to do that". Doesn't condemning all of Earth to permanent misery seems kind of extreme to you? I could imagine putting some candy on a table and tell kids not to touch it, but I wouldn't use a shotgun if they did.

[Caelis666]

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay:

It's unfortunate that these things happen. But that's because we don't live in a perfect world and we have turned our backs on God. God originally intended Earth to be a paradise but we screwed up, and we now have sin, death, plague and pestilence.

God didn't kill your unborn children. That's just the bad nature of the world we live in.

We have turned our back on God, and for that, 2 children die? It's for reasons like that, that I want to have nothing to do with religion, even if I am not an atheist. Especially Christians have a sick, twisted way of using horrible things as a punishment from God. Children, and especially babies, have nothing to do with the 'sins' of humanity. Killing innocent people because other people have turned their back on God doesnt seem like something a forgiving God would do.

If I would have to answer the original question, I say it's because God, if he/she/it exists, is a force of nature and does not know of compassion. I do not share the view of Christianity that humanity was created after God's image. That is a very arrogant thing to take for granted in my opinion. Therefor you should not expect God to share our morals. The loss of a child is terrible, but not something that God 'chose' for. It, unfortunately, just happens.

[Samurai Pooh]

My personal view is that if their is a God, he simply does not care about us. Or cares very little. Or simply does not have the power to do anything about it. Or purposefully causes pain. Who knows?

[Gus Mackay]

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My personal view is that if their is a God, he simply does not care about us. Or cares very little. Or simply does not have the power to do anything about it. Or purposefully causes pain. Who knows?

Everything of this world is to be temporary. Pain is fleeting on the time scale we experience it compared to eternity.

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We have turned our back on God, and for that, 2 children die? It's for reasons like that, that I want to have nothing to do with religion, even if I am not an atheist. Especially Christians have a sick, twisted way of using horrible things as a punishment from God. Children, and especially babies, have nothing to do with the 'sins' of humanity. Killing innocent people because other people have turned their back on God doesnt seem like something a forgiving God would do.

Same deal. For the most, God leaves the world to its own devices. God is interested about our salvation, and if we have to endure pain to get there, so be it. Think of it as 'no pain, no gain' principle. That may sound harsh, but that's just the way the world is.

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I thought you were a creationist? Do I remember wrong? How can entire branches of the animal kingdom have appeared by themselves if you don't believe in evolution?

I believe in a deteriating (sp) evolution after the fact, which for me explains the loss of genetic data and the rising of disease. I don't doubt that evolution occurs - it happens everyday - but looking at the timescale and looking at even the most rapid evolution we can see today, there is no possible way for that to have become an incredibly complex organism in the millions of years it supposedly took. Similarly, cells have a multi-reliance on a number of its parts. Without one of these parts, the cells simply cannot survive. This would imply an evolution so improbable since the cells at the time didn't have the genetic information to know exactly what was needed that it becomes nearly impossible. Unless of course, there was a divine influence in creation.

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God created humans with curiosity. He must have realised that given enough time sooner or later we would give in to temptation. If God didn't intend this he is stupid, which sort of contradicts the assumptions of what a God is supposed to be like.

We were perfect before the fall. It's not unreasonable to ignore temptation. God is perfect and does it everyday

[Acadian9]

geez dude, that reaqlly sucks. i've never had a child before or even tried to have 1 so i dont know wut its like. but i doubt its gods fault. its either terrible luck or some medical problem i guess. sorry bout ur losses

[Samurai Pooh]

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay:

Everything of this world is to be temporary. Pain is fleeting on the time scale we experience it compared to eternity.

Not for those of us who believe the mere (possibly) 70 year life span is all we have. Until there is irrefutable proof of the afterlife, I will not be satisfied with an unlived tormented life. And hopefully neither will you.

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay:

We were perfect before the fall. It's not unreasonable to ignore temptation. God is perfect and does it everyday

We weren't perfect before the fall, because we were suseptible to temptation, something a perfect being shouldn't be able to do.

[Bernel]

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay:

I believe in a deteriating (sp) evolution after the fact, which for me explains the loss of genetic data and the rising of disease.

Then you need to learn more about the very complex adaptations of bacteria and parasites. Things like the HIV-virus aren't just degenerated, they are highly specialised killing machines, and some parasites are much worse. For that matter, if there was no disease before the fall, why would God have given us an immune system so presumably that extremely complex system must have evelolved too.

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I don't doubt that evolution occurs - it happens everyday - but looking at the timescale and looking at even the most rapid evolution we can see today, there is no possible way for that to have become an incredibly complex organism in the millions of years it supposedly took. Similarly, cells have a multi-reliance on a number of its parts. Without one of these parts, the cells simply cannot survive. This would imply an evolution so improbable since the cells at the time didn't have the genetic information to know exactly what was needed that it becomes nearly impossible. Unless of course, there was a divine influence in creation.

Argument by ignorance doesn't work. Just because you don't understand how it could happen doesn't mean it couldn't happen. In fact, researchers are piece by piece puzzling together how it did.

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We were perfect before the fall. It's not unreasonable to ignore temptation. God is perfect and does it everyday

I'd say that flooding the world or tormenting Job just to see what would happen was giving in to temptation in a big way. You just think God is perfect because you've defined perfection as what God does. And as Condemned explains, we can't have been perfect before the fall.

[Caelis666]

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay:

Same deal. For the most, God leaves the world to its own devices. God is interested about our salvation, and if we have to endure pain to get there, so be it. Think of it as 'no pain, no gain' principle. That may sound harsh, but that's just the way the world is.

Wrong. That's how you believe the world to be.

Besides, leaves the world to its own devices? According to christianity, God created those devices. So in the end, your God is a sadist.

[Lord Menchalior]

Definition of Sadist is person who enjoys causing pain to others. You cannot say God is a sadist, as you do not know if God enjoys causing pain... I doubt that seriously personally.

God created lot's of things, but men corrupted a lot things that were not corrupted when God created those. What God created, man can corrupt it, well, most of those things... That is my humble opinion.

God knows what happends in world, but he has promised to respect man's free will and due that, he cannot directly interfeare, not until its time to fill prophesies... God is rarely direct interaction with this world, due man's free will, so he uses a lot... undirect interaction, that will not breake man's free will... JMHO.

[Gus Mackay]

So be it - if you view my God as a sadist, it matters little. I've seen God, I know LM has seen God, and I know many other Christians who have seen God. We can bury our heads in the sands and think 'oh but I don't want to believe in a God who does 'X''. Newsflash: we're not on this earth because of you.

The entire purpose of earth is a test. We're constantly being tested to see if we can be trusted with true riches. It matters little in the long-run if we experience pain, because as Maynard Keynes once said 'in the long-run we're all dead'.

You may not believe in God, or believe in God but just think that he's an ahole, but that's just life. God doesn't need to be nice to exist. Read the OT - He's not a lovely dovey God. He is also God of forgiveness. But this does not equate to God holding our hand through every part of our everyday lives. If horrible things have happened or evolved then that's just life. Blaming God will do you no good.

[Samurai Pooh]

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay:

Blaming God will do you no good.

Neither will thanking or praising him, yet you silly Christians do it all the time

[Strat Attack]

Originally Posted by Condemned:

Neither will thanking or praising him, yet you silly Christians do it all the time

You view is obviously a very narrow one, I pity you, now go live in your own self-sentered world.

Im sorry for your loss, but nobody can really say why it happened, who knows if god was the one responsible..has anyone considered that death exists because of Satan and he is the one who kills..God has nothing to do with it?

If you want logic, imagine if every creature that ever existed was still alive, the human population would supposidly be + 60 billion. Overpopulation is bad enough..its not a nice way to look at things but it could be considered population control.

[Crumby]

Sorry to hear that Grashnak.

Thats the point of view if you believe in heavon Condemned.
You are sad that they died, but you know they are in a much better place God has prepared.