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View Poll Results: Do you want a European Superstate?
Yes i want a european state and im european 16 21.33%
No i dont want a european state and im european 24 32.00%
Yes i want a european state and im not european 18 24.00%
No i dont want a european state and im not european 17 22.67%
Who voted? Voters: 75
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Posts: 866/1009
(16-Jun-2008 at 21:14)


Europe

This is in not a vote on lisbon ok? :P


This poll is to see what you think the long term (could be 50 could be 150 years) goal you think europe should have.

Should it try to form a european superstate/federation or not? and what reasons do you have for your opinion.

Last edited by O s i r i s, 16-Jun-2008 at 21:16.
Edit reason: added a little
#1  
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Posts: 4963/4986
(16-Jun-2008 at 21:58)


Since you are clearly talking about the long-run, I voted 'yes'. If only because of our international strength I feel that we should work together.

Then again, in the really long run I hope the entire planet will be working together much more closely than at the moment. This does mean major UN reorganization of course, and the removal of the seemingly permanent power relations of 1945.

Anyway, back to Europe. So far I think many Europeans feel things are going too fast and we're just not ready for Europe to govern on some issues that many people feel to be 'local'. Of course the trade union has done good things, and so has other co-operation, but people see any increase in power for the European parliament as infringing on their local interests.

Why should the Netherlands pay so much money to the European Union, which in turn sends it to Eastern Europe, to get little in return but a steady influx of largely unwanted immigrants looking for labour? I can understand why most voters think badly of the EU.

However, I'm optimistic. Eventually Eastern Europe will rebuild and become prosperous like us. The entire continent will become stronger, and there will be a longer history of co-operation behind us. Therefore, in the 50-100 year period, I think a strong European government is realistic and to an extent desirable.
#2  
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Posts: 868/1009
(16-Jun-2008 at 22:01)


The only real problem i have would be trying to protect the individual cultures and language of regions as best we can. but as ill be dead after 100 years i voted no because i think it will take a lot lot longer before thats worked out.
#3  
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Donated $11.20
(17-Jun-2008 at 00:32)


All I can say is welcome to the American experience, and good luck with that.

Europe has some commonalities with the US's fledgling and formative years and some obvious disparities. It will and should be a struggle to make the EU one 'nation' so to speak, and I'm not sure Europeans are ready for the 'war', hopefully on less of a militaristic scale nowadays, that it might take to accomplish.

In some ways the EU is far ahead of the US's struggles to become a singular 'nation', but in others it's historic diversity hinders it moreso. It will be a wild ride that I don't think our generation will see completed. As for predictions ... let's just say that history is the best judge of future events.

Europe is more unified than it's ever been, and kudos (I think) for that. Of course if the prevailing mindset is that it leads to greater power / authority, you have to be prepared for the power / authority struggles inherent, and for the inherent jealously/hatred/animosity that ensues from the rest of the world.

While some can envision a more perfect world as a result of a true European Union speaking in 'one voice', I question whether that desire is just to counter the supposed 'American' voice. Will a greater Eurpean Union only lead to a greater Asian Union or American Aunion in response?

I actually tend to side with those that think it's not a bad thing long term, but not a good thing in my lifetime. There will be struggle, strife, and likely wars that come out of it. It will have a global ripple effect. In the next 50 years (more than my life expectancy) it could very well be bad, especially if the rest of the world is once again compelled to get involved in Europe's petty squabbles.

I think beyond all else, Europe must unify it's military alliance OUTSIDE of NATO first. In fact disbanding NATO might be the best first step. The EU should be forced to provide for it's own protection without the help of Canada and the US. It should be contribute equally towards it's need to secure other nations, passages, and trade agreements without Canada's and the US's subsidies. It should defend ITSELF against Russia, China, the rest of Asia, and Middle East hostilities without the subsidies of it's altruistic neighbors.

When it does those things, the EU can be considered something other than a 'trade agreement', which is simply how the rest of us currently views it.

Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.-- Mark Twain
#4  
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Posts: 861/904
(17-Jun-2008 at 01:00)


The only way the nations of Europe will be able to compete with the US, China, India, etc. is by banding together. They just aren't big enough on their own.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
#5  
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Posts: 1934/2297
(17-Jun-2008 at 07:16)


Re: Do you want a European Superstate?

Originally Posted by KnightoftheNite: View Post
The only way the nations of Europe will be able to compete with the US, China, India, etc. is by banding together. They just aren't big enough on their own.
That is, assuming that we want to 'compete' with US, China, India, etc. Which is exactly my problem with such a superstate. Superstates only cause enormous tension with their power politics. We don't need one more of those.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

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#6  
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Posts: 1082/1971
(17-Jun-2008 at 07:37)


Quote:
While some can envision a more perfect world as a result of a true European Union speaking in 'one voice', I question whether that desire is just to counter the supposed 'American' voice. Will a greater Eurpean Union only lead to a greater Asian Union or American Aunion in response?
I would welcome a situation where another state would be able to challenge the US when they go around invading other countries... of course on the down side it means if war does break out between them it will be big... so its a difficult choice really: leave the US with enough power to invade random countries every now and then but leave most of us alone, or risk a large war for the sake of the justice of said countries

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#7  
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Posts: 873/1009
(17-Jun-2008 at 07:51)


well give china a few years maybe..

I think the day someone replies to the question "where are you from?" and the reply is Europe. not France Germany England spain etc then you have a small chance.
#8  
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Posts: 245/249
(17-Jun-2008 at 09:00)
thats a goal for sure

things that need to be accomplished check list

1) reduce trade tarrifs to between nothing and almost nothing
2) re-organize EU in such a way where smaller portions (northern europe, eastern europe) dont feel that western europe has more power than they do even though they (west) has more population/money
3) offer uniform social services across total EU
4) shift power away from local govt(good luck)
5) prove that new EU is not a US stand in
6) Uniform European Language taught in school(this would be a language used primarilly in industry and commerce; english or manderan, that would not have to replace local dialects, ideally all EU students would be bi-lingual)
7) FORGIVE GERMANY
8) set up EU govt
9) set up tax system
... keep going

i dont think it will happen in 150 years, but it is a goal. i would say more likely is China and India just buy most of europe.

i'm an american fyi

"History is like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace, and revolution continue on forever"
#9  
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Posts: 747/748
(17-Jun-2008 at 09:47)


Being bilingual with parents from different European countries and also having lived in different European countries my answer is HELL YES!

I don't really see myself as "Swedish" even though I was born here. I don't really see myself as "Irish" either even though I've had a more Irish upbringing than Swedish. I'm European and I'm all for a united Europe.

"All I wanted out of life was just a little more than I deserved"
#10  
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Posts: 1488/1633
(17-Jun-2008 at 10:33)


with a super state Germany cant keep up the tradition of starting world wars ..... so NO

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#11  
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(Posted as Celtic19)
Posts: 292/410
(17-Jun-2008 at 10:54)


Originally Posted by HarleyQuinnROX: View Post
with a super state Germany cant keep up the tradition of starting world wars ..... so NO
WTF? You want anther world war? Were the last two not destructive enough?

Even so it wasn't germany specifically who wanted to go to war but the leaders at the time....
#12  
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Posts: 455/742
(17-Jun-2008 at 11:52)


I'm all for further cooperation as well as integration in some aspects, including Europe as even more of a power block, but i'm against the idea of a 'superstate'. Europe is not going to be a US-like federation anyway, nor should it be. Language differences, historical differences, economic disparities, there are countless things preventing that type of centralization. The aim should be to further integrate the European states mainly in the legal/economic/political domains, while keeping socio-cultural issues largely decentralized in my opinion.

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#13  
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Posts: 312/389
(17-Jun-2008 at 14:00)


Personally, I'd prefer a Dutch Superstate.
#14  
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Donated $9.31
(17-Jun-2008 at 15:39)


Re: Do you want a European Superstate?

Originally Posted by KnightoftheNite: View Post
The only way the nations of Europe will be able to compete with the US, China, India, etc. is by banding together. They just aren't big enough on their own.
That's not really true, though, is it? Norway is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and we're not part of the EU (though we do have some economic cooperation with them, obviously). You could say that our prosperity is in part because of our oil, but you can't disregard natural resources. My point is, bigger doesn't mean better. Norway is competing favorably because Norway doesn't buy more than it needs to. There are a great big bunch of countries that import and export much more than us, but that doesn't make them better places to live.

On the direct question of the superstate.. In one way, like I've just written, I don't think we need to band together, not for any economic reasons. On the other, I think very much like Apeiron on this one. I favour the idea of a sort of "world government", at one point in the future. There's a lot that needs to be done before that can be achieved, but that's not an excuse not to do anything. In that respect, I think regional governments is a step towards that idea.

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#15  
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Posts: 1935/2297
(17-Jun-2008 at 16:06)


I've done some research on the concept of a worldgovernment for a uni-course and I have personally come to the conclusion that it would be extremely dangerous. The first reason being of course that with a world government, resistance from the outside is no longer possible. A second being that with a huge scale like that, effective inside resistance would be extremely hard to organise.

The benefits aren't that big either, because there's no reason to think that a world government that wants to keep world-support will be very efficient in fighting problems like poverty without pissing off the richer parts of the world so much that they'll withdraw support.

Democratic influence will also be brought down to a minimum due to the huge amounts of people involved. Europe is having enough problem with that as it is already.

I personally favour smaller countries with more direct ways of democratic representation.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#16  
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Posts: 2334/2825
(19-Jun-2008 at 06:50)


Re: Do you want a European Superstate?

Originally Posted by Celtic19: View Post
WTF? You want anther world war? Were the last two not destructive enough?

Even so it wasn't germany specifically who wanted to go to war but the leaders at the time....
Actually from what i read in the first world war pretty much everybody was very enthusiastic about it. The people themselves included.

And in WW2 the people of Germany also ddin't mind atall to get back at the people who humilated them at the end of WW1



But yeah. Forming a world goverment would be one way to prevent wars but the price for this may be too high



Quote:
I think the day someone replies to the question "where are you from?" and the reply is Europe. not France Germany England spain etc then you have a small chance.
Actually a lot of us do this all the time. Mostly with americans because we don't really expect them to know individuals countries. Esepcially the smaller ones

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 19-Jun-2008 at 06:52.
#17  
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Posts: 3692/3863
(21-Jun-2008 at 10:15)


I think the countries of europe will need to band together to compete with the up and coming economies of China, India and Russia. The US will need a strong Europe to compete with these economies.

As much as Micheal disagrees with the NATO treaty, it's worth mentioning that Britain fully supports it and has continued to resist a European defence force outside of it. Given that on such matters our Prime Minister listens very heavily to the wants of the US, it's highly likely the US administration see's more benefit in Europe being dependent on the US for defense.

But I digress, I think the EU has many pitfalls to avoid in the next 100 years if it is to become a superstate. The biggest being what I consider to be a result of idle thumbs.

As the slow progress of areas of law-making being passed from national parliaments to the EU, we're going to get incedibly stupid, petty or pointless laws that do nothing but piss populations off. We're already seeing the effect of this. The UK for example has over 600 MPs whose primary purpose is to make law. W

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
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#18  
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Posts: 3693/3863
(21-Jun-2008 at 10:18)


I think the countries of europe will need to band together to compete with the up and coming economies of China, India and Russia. The US will need a strong Europe to compete with these economies.

As much as Micheal disagrees with the NATO treaty, it's worth mentioning that Britain fully supports it and has continued to resist a European defence force outside of it. Given that on such matters our Prime Minister listens very heavily to the wants of the US, it's highly likely the US administration see's more benefit in Europe being dependent on the US for defense.

But I digress, I think the EU has many pitfalls to avoid in the next 100 years if it is to become a superstate. The biggest being what I consider to be a result of idle thumbs.

As the slow progress of areas of law-making being passed from national parliaments to the EU, we're going to get incedibly stupid, petty or pointless laws that do nothing but piss populations off. We're already seeing the effect of this. The UK for example has over 600 MPs whose primary purpose is to make law. Europe has another load of MEPs sitting making law. The effect is that as one has power taken from them, or is waiting for power to be given to them, they try to justify their salaries and jobs by making laws that they do have the power to make, even if the law is not needed.

I like the idea of a European superstate. I just don't like how they're currently going about bringing it around.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
#19  
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Posts: 893/1009
(21-Jun-2008 at 10:36)


i would prefer europe surrendering to Britian

Anyone heard that the french president wants one of our royal navy aircraft carriers to fly the EU flag and be commanded by the EU?
#20  
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