Utopia Temple
Main Forum Page Register an Account for Free! Calendar Frequently Asked Questions about this Board View New Posts Advanced Search Login
  Utopia Temple Forums > General Discussions > Respectable General Discussions > Religious Discussions

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Post New Thread Reply
Author Thread
(Posted as Randomized)
Posts: 383/469
(13-Jun-2011 at 14:59)


Religion is on it's way out

Religion is on it's way out. In western countries more and more people state they do not believe in a God in any way.

Eventually, religion will die out or become something practiced by a small minority.

A pretty blunt statement, but I think (and hope) this is how things will unfold.


Discuss.
#1  
View Public Profile Visit Black Oranje's homepage Find more posts by Black Oranje Add Black Oranje to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 2700/2825
(13-Jun-2011 at 15:44)


It depends on the definition. The power of organised religion has certinly been quite lowered however it's by no means out. Oragnised religion has become part of culture and community

As for the belief in god that depends as well. I don't think people are becoming that much more atheistic. I think it's more a combination of general apathy and not caring at all from one side and increase in genearl spirituality rather then following dogma

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
#2  
View Public Profile Find more posts by DHoffryn Add DHoffryn to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Research Group
Posts: 643/670
Donated $112.99
(14-Jun-2011 at 03:30)


Religion will never disappear. It's just changing.
#3  
View Public Profile Find more posts by advocatus Add advocatus to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 2039/2050
Donated $50.00
(15-Jun-2011 at 16:55)


Re: Religion is on it's way out

Originally Posted by advocatus: View Post
Religion will never disappear. It's just changing.
Agreed, it's changed into other things like belief in benevolent aliens, healing crystals and other madness like homeopathy.

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
#4  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Grashnak Add Grashnak to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 598/611
(15-Jun-2011 at 20:34)


According to sociologist Ulrich Beck, there is a re-emergence of religion happening. Religion is moving into the private sphere. Instutionalised religion is loosing ground, people tend to create and mix their own religious beliefs.

Religion will never become extinct. Its integrated into our life and plays a role in certain stages of life and gives guidance. For instance marriage and death. In the western world, people generally burry their dead in a traditional way with all the religious rites. Even westerners who dont believe in God still marry in a church and infact they dont have to marry at all. A christian marriage does not add any value to their relationship according to an atheist.

Secular ideolgoies due to their limitation to the material world cannot give an explanation to the death or marriage. Marriage and burial ceremonies arent even needed nor explainable by atheistic ideologies. But religion jumps in making sense in such stages of life by metaphysical explanations and explanations are always needed thus religion will never become extinct. In book about social change course you will have a chapter about religion because together with social inequality an family, its a indicator for long term changes in societies. Thats shows alot about the importance of religion.

Id personally rather say that atheistic, secular mindset will eventually dissapear. It was it never able to substitue the function that religion has in society. If it attempts that it turns out to be a bastard. There is a "church of atheism" or Compte's religion of humanity. Both are uber fail and couldnt subsitute the function that traditional religious insitutions provide society with. If they do they only become what they try to distinguish from. Religion...

Another reason is that most atheists explain themselves or become atheists by disassociation to institutionalised religion. Since institutionalised religion is in its demise, atheists loose their 'mirror'. My thesis is the less influence institutionalised religion has in society, the less influence atheistic ideology receives by disassociation. Its the same relation that poverty has to private property ownership and land cultivation (cf. Agrarian justice, Thomas Paine).

peace

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#5  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Armitage Add Armitage to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1795/1846
(15-Jun-2011 at 20:39)


Re: Religion is on it's way out

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
According to sociologist Ulrich Beck, there is a re-emergence of religion happening. Religion is moving into the private sphere. Instutionalised religion is loosing ground, people tend to create and mix their own religious beliefs.

Religion will never become extinct. Its integrated into our life and plays a role in certain stages of life and gives guidance. For instance marriage and death. In the western world, people generally burry their dead in a traditional way with all the religious rites. Even westerners who dont believe in God still marry in a church and infact they dont have to marry at all. A christian marriage does not add any value to their relationship according to an atheist.

Secular ideolgoies due to their limitation to the material world cannot give an explanation to the death or marriage. Marriage and burial ceremonies arent even needed nor explainable by atheistic ideologies. But religion jumps in making sense in such stages of life by metaphysical explanations and explanations are always needed thus religion will never become extinct. In book about social change course you will have a chapter about religion because together with social inequality an family, its a indicator for long term changes in societies. Thats shows alot about the importance of religion.

Id personally rather say that atheistic, secular mindset will eventually dissapear. It was it never able to substitue the function that religion has in society. If it attempts that it turns out to be a bastard. There is a "church of atheism" or Compte's religion of humanity. Both are uber fail and couldnt subsitute the function that traditional religious insitutions provide society with. If they do they only become what they try to distinguish from. Religion...

Another reason is that most atheists explain themselves or become atheists by disassociation to institutionalised religion. Since institutionalised religion is in its demise, atheists loose their 'mirror'. My thesis is the less influence institutionalised religion has in society, the less influence atheistic ideology receives by disassociation. Its the same relation that poverty has to private property ownership and land cultivation (cf. Agrarian justice, Thomas Paine).

peace
your wrong! :P

athiests (i am one) dont believe in a god, its not cause we dont believe in religion at all. I purely dont see any logical evidence that supports the belief in a god.

Saint Sinner for President 2012
You're all fucking stupid
You're mafia, dont deny it.
Absalom
#6  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Skraz Add Skraz to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 600/611
(15-Jun-2011 at 21:02)


im wrong in what exactly? You gotta be more exact. I wrote 5 paragraphs. Are they all wrong. Is my thesis wrong, or is there a special point that you see differently :P

Quote:
athiests (i am one) dont believe in a god, its not cause we dont believe in religion at all. I purely dont see any logical evidence that supports the belief in a god.
Skraz just for you. Ask yourself honestly. When you were small did you ask your mom about the reason of life. Why do humans exists, whats our purpose of life, or something similar or banal like who made the sun shine or why does the sun set? How did your parents explain that to you? You say you are an atheist because you dont believe in God but you certainly had contact with religion. God is always explained in context of religion... i dont think your differentiation makes a difference.

peace

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)

Last edited by Armitage, 15-Jun-2011 at 21:06.
#7  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Armitage Add Armitage to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Global Moderator
Research Group
Posts: 3232/3399
Donated $25.30
(15-Jun-2011 at 21:29)


Re: Religion is on it's way out

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
im wrong in what exactly? You gotta be more exact. I wrote 5 paragraphs. Are they all wrong. Is my thesis wrong, or is there a special point that you see differently :P
Well for starters .. you're wrong in the belief that Atheism is in any way a spiritual mindset

True Atheists, like Skraz, do not believe in a deity of any sort.
So this means that institutionalized religion is not the mirror of Atheism
The confusion lays with the people that believe that they are Atheists because they dont go to church even though they still believe in the spiritual aspect of religion, which isnt accurate

The actual mirror of institutionalised religion would be Agnosticism
Agnostics (I am one) have the the view that certain claims, especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims, are unknown or unknowable

In short Agnostics for the most part are spiritual and while we believe that something is there we dont pretend to know what it is or believe in the claims of organized religion for the most part ect

I believe that these two mindsets will eventually replace the general religious ideals ... except for the radical groups that want to blow crap up and burn witches


"While I respect the Judeo-Christian ethic, as well as the eastern philosophies and of course the teachings of Mohammed, I find that organized religion has corrupted those beliefs to justify countless atrocities throughout history. Were I to attend church, I'd be a hypocrite."
Hyde

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
R.I.P. InJustice!
Hit me up on Facebook

EWE-tah
#8  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Saint Sinner Add Saint Sinner to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1796/1846
(16-Jun-2011 at 07:15)


Re: Religion is on it's way out

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
im wrong in what exactly? You gotta be more exact. I wrote 5 paragraphs. Are they all wrong. Is my thesis wrong, or is there a special point that you see differently :P


Skraz just for you. Ask yourself honestly. When you were small did you ask your mom about the reason of life. Why do humans exists, whats our purpose of life, or something similar or banal like who made the sun shine or why does the sun set? How did your parents explain that to you? You say you are an atheist because you dont believe in God but you certainly had contact with religion. God is always explained in context of religion... i dont think your differentiation makes a difference.

peace
you stated that athiests will die out

Quote:
Another reason is that most atheists explain themselves or become atheists by disassociation to institutionalised religion. Since institutionalised religion is in its demise, atheists loose their 'mirror'. My thesis is the less influence institutionalised religion has in society, the less influence atheistic ideology receives by disassociation. Its the same relation that poverty has to private property ownership and land cultivation (cf. Agrarian justice, Thomas Paine).
you are saying athiests have an idealogy that is the mirror to organised religion, that is wrong, true athiests like myself dont factor religion into our belief structure at all because we see no logical evidence to support the existance of a god let alone a god that allows and influences an organisation (religion)
we dont believe in the same things as each other either, we have personal morals that are completely different from person to person because there is NO ORGANISATION. hence its not a mirror.

the mirror to organised religion are people that are against it, athiests can be against it but they can also be for it if it gives people closure and happiness, we don't fall into either catagory.

i think you mean agnostics more than athiests but even thats not completely accurate because some agnostics definatly dont fall into a mirror to organised religion as some are agnostic out of well to say it bluntly just not giving a shit.

i hope this helps

Saint Sinner for President 2012
You're all fucking stupid
You're mafia, dont deny it.
Absalom
#9  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Skraz Add Skraz to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 2710/2825
(16-Jun-2011 at 21:35)


Quote:
Religion will never become extinct
I am pretty sure it will be extinct not long after we discover immortality. Well at least among those who cna afford immortality. Then it will be just some random myth

Quote:
Even westerners who dont believe in God still marry in a church and infact they dont have to marry at all
That's more tradition then religion and I think a lot of it is due to the aesthetic qualities of a church wedding

Quote:
Id personally rather say that atheistic, secular mindset will eventually dissapear.
Depends on what you mean under this. If you mena the hot blooded kiddie atheist you see oftne on the internet then yes this will be gone as soon as the major religions are broken down into various personal beliefs. However if you understand apathy as a form of atheism as well then this will only grow. For quite a few people religion atheism and so on aren't even real issue. They just don't care

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
#10  
View Public Profile Find more posts by DHoffryn Add DHoffryn to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 602/611
(16-Jun-2011 at 21:52)


Immortality bears its own questions. Which institution will be there to make sense of a unlimited lifespan. Your way of thoughts always impress me and i dont mean that in a flattering way. You truely dont see the signs.

Immortality is not possible because God has decreed every living being to taste death. But even a secular view point approves me statement. Everything has its expiration date. Empirical evidence prove this. Tell me one thing, one phenomen, ne entity that is immortal.There is nothing of the like as far i know.

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#11  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Armitage Add Armitage to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 2711/2825
(16-Jun-2011 at 22:05)


Quote:
Immortality bears its own questions. Which institution will be there to make sense of a unlimited lifespan. Your way of thoughts always impress me and i dont mean that in a flattering way. You truely dont see the signs.
You don't need any really. Well you need the ones who will deal with population control but that's pretty much it


Quote:
Immortality is not possible because God has decreed every living being to taste death. But even a secular view point approves me statement. Everything has its expiration date. Empirical evidence prove this. Tell me one thing, one phenomen, ne entity that is immortal.There is nothing of the like as far i know.
That depends on how you define immortality. If it's simply a lack of dying from old age then yes there is a species of jellyfish who are immortal by this definition

. If it's no death at all that would be merely a matter of manging to aquire a way to download a human mind in the even that the body is destroyed and then implanting it in a new body. The tehcnology for this is a few hundred years away but I don't see it as something impossible

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
#12  
View Public Profile Find more posts by DHoffryn Add DHoffryn to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
(Posted as Randomized)
Posts: 385/469
(18-Jun-2011 at 17:33)


Re: Religion is on it's way out

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
According to sociologist Ulrich Beck, there is a re-emergence of religion happening. Religion is moving into the private sphere. Instutionalised religion is loosing ground, people tend to create and mix their own religious beliefs.
Agreed that people tend to create their own religious believes more these days.

Quote:
Religion will never become extinct. Its integrated into our life and plays a role in certain stages of life and gives guidance. For instance marriage and death. In the western world, people generally burry their dead in a traditional way with all the religious rites. Even westerners who dont believe in God still marry in a church and infact they dont have to marry at all. A christian marriage does not add any value to their relationship according to an atheist.
My girl and I plan to get married in the future. We won't do it in a church however, we'll have our own little ceremony somewhere on a nice place. Also, we won't involve any religion into the whole ordeal.

Now while the ritual of marriage as we use it today may have it's origins in religion, it certainly doesn't mean that without religion a marriage is void. Humans are just very comfortable with the idea of marriage. The marriage is as valuable as the commitment to it of the people that got married.

Burial rituals are something that predates organised religion in any form. Ofcourse, one could argue that a ritual needs a belief and a structure per definition otherwise it wouldn't be a ritual. However one can see the difference between having a customary way to bury your dead and having churches and daily prayer. That's more what I meant by organised religion.

Quote:
Secular ideolgoies due to their limitation to the material world cannot give an explanation to the death or marriage.
Yeh they can. Death = end of life. Your brainfunctions quit, your heart stops, your body starts rotting and is basicly returned to nature. Marriage = lifelong commitment to a partner. Provides stability and as such is regarded as something very nice by most humans.

Quote:
Marriage and burial ceremonies arent even needed nor explainable by atheistic ideologies.
That's because most ideologies an atheist concerns himself with are not about such things. We're quite comfortable with the rituals in place. Marriage is explained above, and burial rituals are just a very respectful way to deal with a loss. Even when you strip religion out of the ritual.

Quote:
But religion jumps in making sense in such stages of life by metaphysical explanations and explanations are always needed thus religion will never become extinct.
Nah, you're overestimating the need for religion in such affairs. Take christmas. Would there be christmas without religion? Yup. There was before Christendom hijacked it: it was a mid-winter feeding fest, where they celebrated that from there on the days will only get longer again till summer. Strip religion from christmas, and you have a feeding fest combined with gifts. Which is basicly what it boils down to in many households anyway.

Quote:
In book about social change course you will have a chapter about religion because together with social inequality an family, its a indicator for long term changes in societies. Thats shows alot about the importance of religion.
No it doesn't. It just points to the fact that religion is still heavily present in society.

Quote:
Id personally rather say that atheistic, secular mindset will eventually dissapear. It was it never able to substitue the function that religion has in society. If it attempts that it turns out to be a bastard.
As bastardly as abusing underage boys? Sorry, I hate to pull that example in here but your argument is basicly that religion is the only source of morals and compassion in society, which frankly is bullshit.

The only function church provides to society is to be a home for religious people. If there were no religious people, there's would be nothing church does that couldn't be done by non-religious organisations.

Yes, church does a lot of good things. It does help fight poverty. It does help bring up youngsters with morals. But saying that morals can not be taught by non-religious people is utter nonsense. The same goes for any other function the church has besides being a home for religious people.

Quote:
There is a "church of atheism" or Compte's religion of humanity. Both are uber fail and couldnt subsitute the function that traditional religious insitutions provide society with. If they do they only become what they try to distinguish from. Religion...
The reason these things didn't work is because people who aren't religious have no need for such institutions.

Quote:
Another reason is that most atheists explain themselves or become atheists by disassociation to institutionalised religion. Since institutionalised religion is in its demise, atheists loose their 'mirror'. My thesis is the less influence institutionalised religion has in society, the less influence atheistic ideology receives by disassociation. Its the same relation that poverty has to private property ownership and land cultivation (cf. Agrarian justice, Thomas Paine).

peace
SaintSinner already said something about Atheism not being a mirror of institutionalised religion. I mostly reflect his views there.

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Skraz just for you. Ask yourself honestly. When you were small did you ask your mom about the reason of life. Why do humans exists, whats our purpose of life, or something similar or banal like who made the sun shine or why does the sun set? How did your parents explain that to you?
Well, -my- mum certainly didn't attribute anything to god. She told me the sun sets because the world is round and turning, the sun shines because it's a big ball of fire in space and we're here so we can live a happy life. If I had any other questions, I picked up a book and read about how and why. By the time I was seven I could name all planets in the solar system and explain the basic workings of every organ in the human body. Worked a lot better than that god-fairy tale.

Quote:
True Atheists, like Skraz, do not believe in a deity of any sort.
Also, there active and passive atheism. Active atheism means having considered the existance of a god and decided that for them, either a god doesn't exist, or isn't necessary to explain the world. A passive atheist simply has never considered the existance of a god.

Quote:
Immortality bears its own questions. Which institution will be there to make sense of a unlimited lifespan. Your way of thoughts always impress me and i dont mean that in a flattering way. You truely dont see the signs.
Here you go again claiming that religion is the only thing that can make sense of things. I never needed religion to make sense of the world. Plain and simple. I don't believe anyone necessarily -needs- religion to make sense of the world, depending on your definition of need.

If you ask me, the world didn't start making sense untill we started scientifically researching it. Until that time we explained stuff with a god.



Interesting watch:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/why-i...r-a-christian/
#13  
View Public Profile Visit Black Oranje's homepage Find more posts by Black Oranje Add Black Oranje to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 2712/2825
(18-Jun-2011 at 20:21)


Quote:
As bastardly as abusing underage boys? Sorry, I hate to pull that example in here but your argument is basicly that religion is the only source of morals and compassion in society, which frankly is bullshit.
I think you misunderstood him. Religion is not only about morality. It's also about building a community and most importantly of all dealing with loss. As one grows closer to the end of their life or they lose a loved ones the idea that there might be something more out there is of great comfort to many people. And not just death but also with other various hardships. We as a society becomes more and more isolated and I wouldn't be surprised if religion provides a great comofrt to many

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
#14  
View Public Profile Find more posts by DHoffryn Add DHoffryn to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
(Posted as Randomized)
Posts: 386/469
(18-Jun-2011 at 23:44)


Re: Religion is on it's way out

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
I think you misunderstood him. Religion is not only about morality. It's also about building a community and most importantly of all dealing with loss. As one grows closer to the end of their life or they lose a loved ones the idea that there might be something more out there is of great comfort to many people. And not just death but also with other various hardships. We as a society becomes more and more isolated and I wouldn't be surprised if religion provides a great comofrt to many
Well as I said, church does do a lot of good and provides a lot of comfort. What I have a problem with is the tendency to claim they are the only ones who can provide such things.
#15  
View Public Profile Visit Black Oranje's homepage Find more posts by Black Oranje Add Black Oranje to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 603/611
(19-Jun-2011 at 01:42)


Originally Posted by Randomized:
What I have a problem with is the tendency to claim they are the only ones who can provide such things.
Religion gives answer to 'why' of a matter whereas an atheist can only explain the 'how' of a matter. Your mother explained you how the sun sets but not the why and thats the question religion gives answers to and its irrelevant if you deem the answer correct or not.

It is in this light that i say that religion gives explanations while secular ideology is not able to do so. The answer to the 'why' question lies essentially in the metaphyiscal realm. A realm secular ideologies cannot enter. If they try they become secular versions of religion. The uber fail i spoke of.

I agree that many rituals perviously based on religion have become very secular but at the same time very hollow.

You will marry your girlfriend - what makes you need of taking this step. I hope you dont mind taking this abit further. I can only see two reasons. Social expectations, personal anxiety (i lack a correct wording for what i want to say, i hope its understood). Social expectations is kind of self explanatory. With personal anxiety i mean, the fear of what might happen tomorrow. In order to make the future predictable, you strenghten the bond you have with your girlfriend by marrying. By atheistic standards marriage is unexplainable and even tho you dont marry in a church and believe in the religious background, you still prove my point that life demands and creates the need for rituals. Thats the reason why i dont think religion can every become extinct. If traditional religion becomes replaced by secular ideology, secular ideology will - by time - create its own myths in time, to explain the 'why' question and become a substitute religion.

Originally Posted by Randomized:
If you ask me, the world didn't start making sense untill we started scientifically researching it. Until that time we explained stuff with a god.
As explained above, with the emergence of scientific theory and the subsequent exclusion of knowledge to the material realm, in fact we started to make less sense of the world while beginning to understand the how the world functions.

@Dhoffryn: Which jellyfish can potentially live forever? Im eager to research this claim further.

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#16  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Armitage Add Armitage to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
(Posted as Randomized)
Posts: 387/469
(19-Jun-2011 at 14:11)


Re: Religion is on it's way out

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Religion gives answer to 'why' of a matter whereas an atheist can only explain the 'how' of a matter. Your mother explained you how the sun sets but not the why and thats the question religion gives answers to and its irrelevant if you deem the answer correct or not.
Fair point, well noted.

Quote:
It is in this light that i say that religion gives explanations while secular ideology is not able to do so. The answer to the 'why' question lies essentially in the metaphyiscal realm. A realm secular ideologies cannot enter. If they try they become secular versions of religion. The uber fail i spoke of.
I see.

Well, I can only speak for myself here, but the why question as opposed to the how question is simply not something I concern myself with. But good point!

Quote:
I agree that many rituals perviously based on religion have become very secular but at the same time very hollow.
Only as hollow as the people commited to it make it.

Quote:
You will marry your girlfriend - what makes you need of taking this step. I hope you dont mind taking this abit further. I can only see two reasons. Social expectations, personal anxiety (i lack a correct wording for what i want to say, i hope its understood). Social expectations is kind of self explanatory. With personal anxiety i mean, the fear of what might happen tomorrow. In order to make the future predictable, you strenghten the bond you have with your girlfriend by marrying.
Personal anxiety, or being comfortable with the stability a marriage provides. I could call marriage "the Big Promise" an just be very comfortable with the fact both me n my girl decided to take such a commitment with eachother.

Call it anxiety that the marriage will fill (which then everyone would have, even religious people), or call it a lifelong bond which provides stability we're all looking for, for both marriage delivers the same promise. It either takes care of the anxiety, or prevents it. Wether or not the anxiety is there and needs to be fulfilled, or wether we marry to avoid the anxiety, is a different question with not much implications on the value and function of marriage.


Quote:
By atheistic standards marriage is unexplainable and even tho you dont marry in a church and believe in the religious background, you still prove my point that life demands and creates the need for rituals. Thats the reason why i dont think religion can every become extinct. If traditional religion becomes replaced by secular ideology, secular ideology will - by time - create its own myths in time, to explain the 'why' question and become a substitute religion.
The need for rituals is derived more from the complex social systems that the human species has evolved over time, as I see it. These rituals do not have to be founded in religion.

As for the 'why' question, it's very much possible that the irrelevance of that question (that's how I perceive it) becomes more of a general viewpoint. "We weren't put here to please some deity, we're just here. Now let's enjoy the time we have here!".

However, there will always be a realm of things we do not know. This is the only realm I expect religion to be a factor in explaining things (apart from the why concept). For example:

I learned about big bang theory while I was in elementary (I always read scientific stuff in my own time, still do). I also heard about the story of creation in elementary (told as a bible story, not as fact). I noticed that religion tried to explain or deny a lot of things that were later on covered by scientific explainations (heliocentric model, vacuum, etc).
I figured that the story of creation was how they thought the world came to be in the time the bible was written.
This lead me to two things.
First, why doesn't the church update their version of reality to confer with what has already been scientifically accepted? We read a lot about the church persecuting great thinkers in the past, and the recent rise of the creationism movement isn't giving me much hope.
Second, I think that, if we're able to make reasonable explaination about where we came from and how we got here, the church should try to look for explainations beyond what we're able to theorize and prove.
If creation was the best explaination 2000 years ago, big bang would be one of the best these days (combined with ofcourse forming of the solar system and evolution). That would be my Genesis story. God could still be the one who kickstarted it all, he could still be the one who wrote all those laws of nature that fit so beautifully together to make everything work the way it does. If religion was able to update their version of reality to these insights, it would be a lot more acceptable to me.
In it's current form there are too many paradoxes though.

Quote:
As explained above, with the emergence of scientific theory and the subsequent exclusion of knowledge to the material realm, in fact we started to make less sense of the world while beginning to understand the how the world functions.
I disagree with the world making less sense, but that's probably a matter of perspective and a bit trivial in this discussion.
#17  
View Public Profile Visit Black Oranje's homepage Find more posts by Black Oranje Add Black Oranje to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 604/611
(19-Jun-2011 at 15:09)


Quote:
The need for rituals is derived more from the complex social systems that the human species has evolved over time, as I see it. These rituals do not have to be founded in religion.
The material facts on the groud, the natural laws, demand that we humans form rituals. They dont have to be founded in religion, correct, but religion use these circumstances to create a bigger picture. In their attempt they can be more or less convincing.


I dont think the answer to the why question and the sense it conveys to our lives is a trivial matter. Afterall the question "why does God allow injustice, evil in our world?" is one of the major arguments of atheists. Even if i havent explained why the 'why' question matters, it still think its highy important to human well being.

Aside of that, im glad i wasnt born in a christian household. I probably have become a disbeliever in Christianity too but not in God.

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#18  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Armitage Add Armitage to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 2713/2825
(19-Jun-2011 at 15:27)


Quote:
Well as I said, church does do a lot of good and provides a lot of comfort. What I have a problem with is the tendency to claim they are the only ones who can provide such things.
Such things as whole no. Such things in specific areas yes. Because it gives a supernatural comofrt and thus an escape from the harsh and unforgiving reality. This specific kind of hope can't be provided by anybody else and quite a few people need it

Quote:
Skraz just for you. Ask yourself honestly. When you were small did you ask your mom about the reason of life. Why do humans exists, whats our purpose of life, or something similar or banal like who made the sun shine or why does the sun set? How did your parents explain that to you?
I think most of us simply get the answers of these questions kinda through osmosis with society. A documentary here a book there, a word from the parents or friends over there and so on.

Quote:
Religion gives answer to 'why' of a matter whereas an atheist can only explain the 'how' of a matter.
But everbody can give a why as countless cults and self important people on the web can show you. The question is the way they answer this good enough. And here comes the problem with religion. It's not very inflexible which can spell it's doom in our super fast and choke full of information age

Quote:
I agree that many rituals perviously based on religion have become very secular but at the same time very hollow
The importance of the ritual doesn't come from whether it's secular or religous but from the people involved in it and how they feel and express it no matter if religious or secular. The "ritual" of going for a drink with your buddies before you travel far away can be ten times more emotional and fullfiling then the most deatield and ancient religious ritual depending on the people involved in it

Quote:
@Dhoffryn: Which jellyfish can potentially live forever? Im eager to research this claim further.
Oh it's not a claim it's a fact. I am sure you can find it on google. Basically from what I rememebr and let say this will be very unscientifcally the jelly fish the ability to turn itself into a baby again and live it's life. And this over and over. As many times as it wants

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
#19  
View Public Profile Find more posts by DHoffryn Add DHoffryn to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 605/611
(19-Jun-2011 at 23:40)


Originally Posted by Dhoffryn:
Oh it's not a claim it's a fact. I am sure you can find it on google. Basically from what I rememebr and let say this will be very unscientifcally the jelly fish the ability to turn itself into a baby again and live it's life. And this over and over. As many times as it wants.
I looked into it and of course this jelly fish is not immortal. It has the ability to change back into earlier growth stages thus making itself younger. But it still gets, eaten, dies by malnutrition and other causes. Its not immortal.

One immortal being would be Doomsday from DC Comics. That villian is immune to death and can revive himself. After he revives he can never die the same way again constantly evolving itself and adapting to environmental changes and threaths. But this jellyfish... nothing of the like. Doomsday... a comic figure, a nice mind game but at the end fiction. There is no immortal being. Immortality is a myth because we cannot control our environment which can become a death trap to us anytime. I was naive to think a jelly fish could be immortal, im sure even thats not true because its only hypothetized that it can revive itself infinite times, thus become potentially immortal.

But even if we assume, with immortality we will still have the ever impending why question over our heads. As you say the harsh reality demands it.

Reality leads us to do certain things and think certain ways, follow certain rituals. Now the question is what answer does it direct us to?? Monotheism, Atheism, Pantheism, etc. Many answers but one thing is certain, these are signs for us to find truth in them. At the end everyone has to be sincere to himself.

Quote:
But everbody can give a why as countless cults and self important people on the web can show you. The question is the way they answer this good enough. And here comes the problem with religion. It's not very inflexible which can spell it's doom in our super fast and choke full of information age
I think you are right. The information age is deadly to false ideolgies. Religion has a necessary function in society and thus will not become extinct but its rituals and answers will change. With more knowledge the signs will be read correctly and one day all people will enjoy a religion that is based in trueness.

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#20  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Armitage Add Armitage to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump:

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Falsity of Religion: Twelve Indisputable Arguments AsianAmerican Religious Discussions 54 27-Aug-2005 14:08
Why is religion taken serious in some parts of the world? draconis84 Polls Heaven 30 24-Apr-2005 07:46
On the topic of Evangilism and Finding your religion. pump Religious Discussions 17 31-Jul-2004 11:13
Religious survey,all input welcomed Jean831112 Religious Discussions 29 13-Apr-2004 16:52
Question on Religion from an outsider Cleyra Religious Discussions 52 16-Jul-2003 05:24


All times are GMT+1. The time now is 04:59.

Powered by vBulletin (modified)
Copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.