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Posts: 410/898
(11-Feb-2004 at 04:33)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

It's very simple what I am saying. I'm saying that men cannot comprehend God in his fulness but we can understand Him to an extent.
then i misinterpreted your post. i apologize.

Quote:
...That is all we need. We don't need to grasp every detail of what God is. But we can grasp the main idea.
careful on this. it might lead to people thinking they know God already, and preaching things about God based on one's point of view and not for who he truly is. one has to "keep looking" even if one realizes he cannot know the answer. it was one person's avatar but, as Socrates said, the only thing we can surely know is knowing that we know nothing.

Quote:
If we can't do this then I can't even see a reason for existance. Why live life when we can't learn anything about God from it?
following the earlier post, although we trace our existence to God, we are autonomous creatures. some things are revealed to us and that is good. but it is never enough.

Quote:
God was sitting in heaven when a scientist prayed to Him. "God, we don't need you anymore. Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing - in other words, we can now do what you did in the beginning."

"Oh, is that so? Tell Me more about it" replied God.

"Well," said the scientist, "we can take dirt and form it into the likeness of you and breath life into it, thus creating man."

"Well, that's very interesting, show Me."

So the scientist bent down to the earth and started to mold the soil into the shape of a man.

No, no, no," interrupted God, "Get your own dirt."

You may create something, but the materials you made it from were God's in the first place.
i believe the question could be answered by yes or no with the adequate explanation. so is it a "yes" or a "no" and why? the context is assuming man has the capacity to create as God can create. please don't revert to whatever you think is true and real in terms of what you've been taught because it is possible to think and ponder about the situation presented. so think about it.

Last edited by Aletheia, 11-Feb-2004 at 04:38.
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(11-Feb-2004 at 05:16)


Quote:
(Originally posted by EgAMaD BoD)

He said this:

"...If I have a child, AN INNOCENT BABY, does that give me the right to kill it? After all, I created it."

Assuming he made this child, and assuming the God you speak of didn't make everything, then would he have the right to kill it?
Yes. Who is anyone else to tell him otherwise?

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#282  
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(11-Feb-2004 at 06:31)
I am not Christain yet I believe in God, let us keep this in answering or opposing what Christains do or did and what the Bible says. Personally I dont call most people christian because they are not so unless they follow the rules of the Bible. Whenever I try to debate anything with a "christain" they just tell me they dont believe in that part of the Bible but in other parts. Personally that doenst make any sense to me if you believe in God and
God is right, just good etc. how can you disagree with his word If the bible truly is his word or that of his followers? Also it seems alot of anti christian things are up I would gladly discuss other religions including Judaism, Hinduism, Buddishm (is that even a religion or just a way to live? no offense of course I just no little more then it condones no violence), I also want to clear up any rumors or falsities about Islam especailly so just check my new forum. By they way if you couldnt tell Im not American, African, Euro, Spanish, white, black, SE asian or mexican, Christian completely irelivant but oh well.
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(11-Feb-2004 at 15:06)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

Yes. Who is anyone else to tell him otherwise?
Ah, the christian "compassion" at work, nice.

My MSN is still [email protected].
My Skype is kapteindynetrekk
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(11-Feb-2004 at 15:33)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Nimon)

Ah, the christian "compassion" at work, nice.
Under the assumption there is no God, yes he does.

It his his opinion he can kill it and why should your opinion he can't have any more relevance?

If there is no God there is no morals, no ethics, no laws. Only opinions. Just because an opinion is held by the majority doesn't make it right.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#285  
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Old lmc
Posts: 564/1208
(11-Feb-2004 at 15:57)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)
If there is no God there is no morals, no ethics, no laws. Only opinions. Just because an opinion is held by the majority doesn't make it right.
A particularly strange statement when laws, morals and ethics all exist in our world and it is evidently a matter of opinion as to whether God exists.

Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.

Groucho Marx
http://tangenitaldrunkeness.blogspot...ac22c48044bdd8
#286  
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(11-Feb-2004 at 17:12)


Quote:
(Originally posted by lmc)

A particularly strange statement when laws, morals and ethics all exist in our world and it is evidently a matter of opinion as to whether God exists.
I think you have that backwards: Laws, morals and ethics largely exist because of God; And it is evidently a matter of opinion as to whether God exists or not to approximately 850 million Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

The other 5+ Billion are pretty sure God exists!

Work like you will live forever and live like you will die tommorrow!
#287  
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Old lmc
Posts: 565/1208
(11-Feb-2004 at 18:15)


Quote:
(Originally posted by PatrioticSpirit)

I think you have that backwards: Laws, morals and ethics largely exist because of God; And it is evidently a matter of opinion as to whether God exists or not to approximately 850 million Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

The other 5+ Billion are pretty sure God exists!
That's not the way I see it. If you said laws, morals and ethics largely exist beacuse of religion, we would have something to discuss. However, to say they exist because of God is to presuppose the existence of God, existence which remains inconclusive in fact, whatever opinions you or I may personally hold.

Laws are necessary for a functional society. Morals and ethics are the Cultural and traditional interpretations of the most important and universal laws. They are as much a part of the human phenomenon as language or tool use. The rituals and mysticism that develop around these necessary guidelines in primitive societies are far more likely to have led to the first religions than the other way around.

As for God's existence being a matter of opinion, I'm glad you're in agreement. As MAPS said, just because an opinion is held by the majority doesn't make it right.

Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.

Groucho Marx
http://tangenitaldrunkeness.blogspot...ac22c48044bdd8
#288  
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(11-Feb-2004 at 21:20)


Allow me to explain my reasoning about ethics coming from a higher power.

A man steals a loaf of bread from a grocery store.

If there is no higher supreme power or being which owns this bread, this is not wrong because no one owns the bread.

Where did the store get it?
They bought it with money.
Where did they get the money?
From other people.
Where did those people get it?
The government.
Where did the government get it?
By claiming ownership of materials like gold and ores and metals and materials from the Earth.
So if that came from the Earth, then everything we claim to own really belongs to the Earth.
But what created Earth?
The formation of the solar system.
What created the solar system?
Formation of the galaxy.
Galaxies were formed when the universe came into being.

By all this we see that all existance is either owned by existance itself or by a higher power that created the universe.

No man has more ownership over something than any other man and cannot say what can be done with that thing.

Everyone has their own opinions and no one's opinion is any better than anyone elses. You can't tell me killing is wrong. I can't tell you killing is right.

Morals and laws are the majority opinion of what is right. But no one really knows for sure save the supreme creator of existance which has the final say on the matter.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')

Last edited by MAPS, 11-Feb-2004 at 21:25.
#289  
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(11-Feb-2004 at 21:32)


Quote:
(Originally posted by PatrioticSpirit)

And it is evidently a matter of opinion as to whether God exists or not to approximately 850 million Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

The other 5+ Billion are pretty sure God exists!
I am not sure of the numbers you are showing, I read 1 billions non-religious and OVER 30 MILLIONS Taoists... you forgot to mention that only muslims, christians and jews believe in god.
the Coran states "you should not go to war agaisnt the jew and the christian as they love the same god than you do" the other are not worshiping god (that does not exist btw...)
if you watch closely christianity was imposed to the population through force, while religion like budhism never killed for their faith (at least on THIS scale)

When your girlfriend dumps you on your birthday after you failed the hardest class, lost your wallet and broke your knees, have a Beer.
When you're chassed by a tax colletor, 5 wolves in a burning forest while being forced to listen to all of B. Spears' CDs, have a Beer.


And if beer fails, do some maths
#290  
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(11-Feb-2004 at 21:52)


By:lmc
Quote:
That's not the way I see it.
And that sums it up completely; It is a matter of your opinion that God does not exist!
And you are welcome to your opinion!
There are 5+ billion of us who are of the opinion that God exists.

Quote:
Laws are necessary for a functional society. Morals and ethics are the Cultural and traditional interpretations of the most important and universal laws. They are as much a part of the human phenomenon as language or tool use.
Agreed!

Quote:
The rituals and mysticism that develop around these necessary guidelines in primitive societies are far more likely to have led to the first religions than the other way around.
And you base this on .... opinion maybe

Quote:
As for God's existence being a matter of opinion, I'm glad you're in agreement. As MAPS said, just because an opinion is held by the majority doesn't make it right.
Yes I do agree it is a matter of opinion!
Then what explains the human phenomenon of 80+% of the worlds population believe in God, and a very small percentage believe no god exists?
It is my opinion that belief in God is a human trait and so being preceded and was responsibile for the development of religion and civilized society including laws, morals and the universal laws you speak of.

Work like you will live forever and live like you will die tommorrow!

Last edited by PatrioticSpirit, 11-Feb-2004 at 21:53.
#291  
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(11-Feb-2004 at 23:12)


In the Sumerian Scriptures, which go back at least 6000 years, the stone tablets tell us about the Anunnaki "they who from heaven came". According to researchers like Zachariah Sitchin, David Icke and William Bramley, the Anunnaki were the Gods mentioned in the Old Testament of the Bible, and they were aliens who came from another planet and created humankind as a slave race to serve them. The Sumerian Scriptures tell us about Anu, who was the king of the Anunnaki, and Ea (or Enki), who is equivalent to Satan. He is told to be the one who gave the knowledge to man in the Garden of Eden, and created the first secret society, the above mentioned "The Brotherhood of the Snake". The Anunnaki is said to have come here to exploit the resources of the Earth; especially gold, as this was something they were lacking on their planet, and they urgently needed it as an important ingredient in their atmosphere. Thus Ea, who was a brilliant scientist, created homo sapiens as a hybrid between a primitive earth life-form and the alien race.

?
#292  
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Posts: 560/2162
(12-Feb-2004 at 00:15)


Quote:
(Originally posted by rormc)

In the Sumerian Scriptures, which go back at least 6000 years, the stone tablets tell us about the Anunnaki "they who from heaven came". According to researchers like Zachariah Sitchin, David Icke and William Bramley, the Anunnaki were the Gods mentioned in the Old Testament of the Bible, and they were aliens who came from another planet and created humankind as a slave race to serve them. The Sumerian Scriptures tell us about Anu, who was the king of the Anunnaki, and Ea (or Enki), who is equivalent to Satan. He is told to be the one who gave the knowledge to man in the Garden of Eden, and created the first secret society, the above mentioned "The Brotherhood of the Snake". The Anunnaki is said to have come here to exploit the resources of the Earth; especially gold, as this was something they were lacking on their planet, and they urgently needed it as an important ingredient in their atmosphere. Thus Ea, who was a brilliant scientist, created homo sapiens as a hybrid between a primitive earth life-form and the alien race.

?
Yes I agree ?
Interesting theory, have links or book titles?

Work like you will live forever and live like you will die tommorrow!
#293  
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(12-Feb-2004 at 01:32)
Yeah about the opinions and God thing. The Aztecs believed that sacrificing people for God was the right thing and most of the Aztec population agreed with this right? So if right and wrong were not in place by God then these sacrifices were right. Also during the Crusades and the Inquisition when the Christians slew all of the "heretics" they believed what they were doing the right thing. Was this right because most of the population agreed? You can keep going but right and wrong are opinions to people but God knows what is right and wrong and set them in the holy books. But ofcourse all of these were changed and manipulated until they became false except for one. Also about that qoute about not attacking Christians and Jews, Islam only calls for struggle when a government or empire threatens the believers or causes harm upon them. If they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu it matters not. Thge thing about the people of the book is that they used to follow the right path until the kings and people changed the books of God.
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Old lmc
Posts: 566/1208
(12-Feb-2004 at 19:02)


Quote:
(Originally posted by bright06)
Yeah about the opinions and God thing. The Aztecs believed that sacrificing people for God was the right thing and most of the Aztec population agreed with this right? So if right and wrong were not in place by God then these sacrifices were right.
You've got that the wrong way round. Those sacrifices were right according to God, or at least their version of him. Read your Bible and you'll see that your own God was (is?)just as brutal.

Quote:
(Originally posted by bright06)
Also during the Crusades and the Inquisition when the Christians slew all of the "heretics" they believed what they were doing the right thing. Was this right because most of the population agreed?
God told them it was good!
Quote:
(Originally posted by bright06)
You can keep going but right and wrong are opinions to people but God knows what is right and wrong and set them in the holy books.
The same books used to to justify the Inquisition, or is there a new set?
Quote:
(Originally posted by bright06)
But ofcourse all of these were changed and manipulated until they became false except for one.
Let me guess, your one?
Quote:
(Originally posted by bright06)
Also about that qoute about not attacking Christians and Jews, Islam only calls for struggle when a government or empire threatens the believers or causes harm upon them. If they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu it matters not. Thge thing about the people of the book is that they used to follow the right path until the kings and people changed the books of God.
Why pay any attention to them if they are all corrupted?

PatrioticSpirit, you're going to have to stop agreeing with me, it's not doing you're rep or mine any good!
The only part of your post I have issue with is this;
Quote:
Then what explains the human phenomenon of 80+% of the worlds population believe in God, and a very small percentage believe no god exists?
I'll quote MAPS again;
Quote:
Just because an opinion is held by the majority doesn't make it right.
Besides, who is this majority you speak of? All who follow religion (however vaguely) or believe in supernatural powers? Do you exclude those with no God concept and those with no clearly defined concept of God? Do you exclude spirit/nature/ancestor worship? Do you restrict it to those who follow the God of Abraham? Just Christians? Do you exclude Roman Catholic/Orthodox/Mormons?
I'm quite sure you would exclude Thugees or Satanists.
My countries last census (2002)lists those who chose 'no religion' as the largest single ethical minority (the majority being Roman Catholic). If you include those who gave no response to the religion question, they are nearly twice that of the next largest (Church of Ireland Anglicans). I think the point is that you're 80% majority is not as safe as it looks at first glance.

Quote:
It is my opinion that belief in God is a human trait and so being preceded and was responsibile for the development of religion and civilized society including laws, morals and the universal laws you speak of.
And, as already explained, my opinion is different. I would like to say something else though. Whether or not a belief in some form of God was the impetus for morals, ethics and laws or the other way around, surely you would admit that it is not necessary to believe in God in order to have morals, ethics or a belief in the rule of law?

Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.

Groucho Marx
http://tangenitaldrunkeness.blogspot...ac22c48044bdd8

Last edited by lmc, 12-Feb-2004 at 19:05.
#295  
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(12-Feb-2004 at 23:07)
Quote:
(Originally posted by PatrioticSpirit)

I think you have that backwards: Laws, morals and ethics largely exist because of God; And it is evidently a matter of opinion as to whether God exists or not to approximately 850 million Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

The other 5+ Billion are pretty sure God exists!
That's an incorrect statement, because it states that only 55% of the world are Christian+Islam.

Those are the only two which believe "God" exists.

Hinduism, which is composed of 15% believe in 3 million gods.

Nonreligious is composed of 14%, which mostly believe in no gods.

Buddhism which is composed of 6%, believes in neither God, Gods, nor Higher power.

Chinese Traditional which is composed of 4% believes in Ancestral worship, and multiple gods.

Primal-indegenous, composed of 3%, believes in an Animalistic worship, (totems, etc.) if my knowledge serves me.

And i'm pretty sure over 50% of the other category (3%) believes in no "God".

Ignorance at its best... If you were to say 5 billion people in our world believe in "God", then you would be implying that there are over 9 billion people in our world.

---
Those that choose not to open their eyes, will expect to see me once they do.
#296  
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(13-Feb-2004 at 03:01)


Quote:
(Originally posted by EgAMaD BoD)

That's an incorrect statement, because it states that only 55% of the world are Christian+Islam.

Those are the only two which believe "God" exists.

Hinduism, which is composed of 15% believe in 3 million gods.

Nonreligious is composed of 14%, which mostly believe in no gods.

Buddhism which is composed of 6%, believes in neither God, Gods, nor Higher power.

Chinese Traditional which is composed of 4% believes in Ancestral worship, and multiple gods.

Primal-indegenous, composed of 3%, believes in an Animalistic worship, (totems, etc.) if my knowledge serves me.

And i'm pretty sure over 50% of the other category (3%) believes in no "God".

Ignorance at its best... If you were to say 5 billion people in our world believe in "God", then you would be implying that there are over 9 billion people in our world.
Oh my gosh you are correct! I was mistaken! But before your head swells to much!

Quote:
Hinduism, which is composed of 15% believe in 3 million gods.
I have posted in another thread a while ago; From a site on Hinduism which states the Hindu worship one God in many forms.
Quote:
Chinese Traditional which is composed of 4% believes in Ancestral worship, and multiple gods.
As the above example shows: Most religions that worship multiple Gods in reality are worshiping one God in multiple forms. another example would be the Egyptians.

So that would bring us up to 74% = 5+ billion
and lets not forget:
Judaism: God.
Baha'i: I think God, but may be higher power.
Shinto: Higher power.
Unitarian-Universalism: God.
Quote:
Ignorance at its best

Work like you will live forever and live like you will die tommorrow!

Last edited by PatrioticSpirit, 13-Feb-2004 at 03:03.
Edit reason: misspelled word
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(13-Feb-2004 at 03:47)


Oh my gosh another mistake:
6 Billion X 74 % only = 4.44 Billion!

Work like you will live forever and live like you will die tommorrow!
#298  
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(13-Feb-2004 at 04:13)
Yes, but these interpretations and God don't speak of the same thing.

You would only be correct in saying Christianity, Islam, and Judaism share the same God.

In the case of Hinduism, Brahman is their "ultimate being". Brahman is represented by many gods, however, the beliefs and philosophies behind Brahman are completely different from the messages portrayed by "God" within the said three religions.

On the other hand, "Traditional Chinese", as i've said before, is a very loose belief revolving around ancestral worship and folklore. It is very far from sharing any similar ideologies with the "God" Christianity, Islam, and Judaism portray.

When it comes to religions, most of what matters are the beliefs. And the beliefs about God are disimilar within all but those three religions; Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

I have studied religion and philosophy extensively, and have experienced many said eastern and western religions first hand. Please do more research.

---
Those that choose not to open their eyes, will expect to see me once they do.
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(13-Feb-2004 at 14:24)


Quote:
I have studied religion and philosophy extensively, and have experienced many said eastern and western religions first hand. Please do more research.
If that is a true statement then why would you claim:
Quote:
Hinduism, which is composed of 15% believe in 3 million gods.
when it is an incorrect statement? maybe your studies were flawed.

Work like you will live forever and live like you will die tommorrow!
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