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(Posted as You And God)
Posts: 922/1637
(11-Feb-2008 at 02:26)
Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Last night, I was honest to myself it came to me just what all of this is about. And not just the words that I have been using but the thoughts behind them too. And not just in this post. It has been selfish of me, and I hope that i can be forgiven.

The reason is that I have been going about things on these forums, pretty much from the beginning, as if it was all about me. I am not going to defend myself and make some kind of new idea that I can force down you throat to say "everyone is only ever in it for themselves" so that I can feel better about myself. The ideas which I put forward are always typed in a way that only I can understand. Even when I posted here before I was under the name Gotterdammrung, it was Convict, and it was still a race to push a one side of an argument until I was satisfied I had forced my view on enough people. For many years I kept this up.

Another reason was through my arrogance. If there ever was a moment where I felt completely at odds with others who did not understand my view, I would raise the stakes higher and higher and become more and more pushy. I would think of them us stupid. I would even change the name from time to time just to fuel the idea that I was able to keep you all at bay.

Many times I would pretend to be humble or pretend to be enlightened. I was a pretender. I could always feel a silent respect for myself if I could walk away from an argument with a belief to go home to. Well, it was more about what others thought, not what I thought about myself. I thought that it was easy to use the internet as a way of creating new feelings towards myself. I thought that behind all of the words and the grand ideas that somehow I could become something more.

Knowledge and philosophy for me from now on will always be tainted. Even the way I speak always reminds me of a lie. It it time for me to let go of all of this non-sense. And I do not know how I will be able to talk to you again. I am very sorry. The shame would just be too much. I would have nothing to talk about. Now I am gone.
#21  
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Posts: 1546/2860
(11-Feb-2008 at 02:43)


What is this fucking thread about? As proof that nobody knows, lets try and post something off topic. I bet you can't.

Mars II - American Scientist
PhD - Physical Chemistry
#22  
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Posts: 219/294
(11-Feb-2008 at 03:24)
Here is another example of 2 + 2 equalling something else.

Say I decided to make 4 cds filled with my own guitar music.
The cds that I made become famous and I kept the original copies of the cds but I made 4 new copies of the first cd and and gave 2 to my friend mike and the other 2 to my friend john
John and mike thought the cd was awesome and burned 2 copies of there cd each.
John gives 2 copies to ryder
Mike gives 2 copies to aurora

The quality of ryder and auroras cds are not as good as the quality of mike and johns copy.
The quality of mike and johns cds are certainly not as good of quality as my cd

Ryder and aurora have 4 cds all together but the quality of the cds are less than mine for sure since they were original copies.

Ryder now has .7 out of 1 quality for each cd. The cd is no longer equal to 1 as far as more cds are made the quality reduces itself.

Ryder and auroras cd value has dropped to .7 of a quality cd and has turned into a quanity of a cd
The equation is no longer 1 cd plus 1 cd plus 1 cd plus 1 cd = 4. The equation is now .7 + .7 + .7 .+7 = 2.8 net cd so there 4 cds in market value are only worth 2.8 of what 4 original cds would be worth

Now moving on.

Since I got famous from these cds the original copies will be worth more and my cds that I own will be the quality of 1 cd in its entirty each thus I will make more money off it because its originality. Because its not just a copy which makes the product worth less.

the 8th copy of the cd essentially is worth .7 but the first copy of the cd is worth whole value thus in this situation.

The copy of the cd as far as its value is less than 1 but greater than 0
#23  
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(Posted as matinog)
Posts: 684/922
(11-Feb-2008 at 03:25)


Quote:
You may or may not be right saying that laws DO exist in nature
if ou live in a city with electricity, running water, and a roof over your head, you better hope they do exist. If science says that matter will be in one of three states of matter if they meet certain conditions, that is all that its stating. If the conditions go outside what is stated, it doesn't disprove anything.

And math varies depending what base it is, hex 10+10=14(i think). This is similar to what you are stating. just because the answer is different it doesn't disprove that under base 10, 10+10=20.

@op: meh, just keep on posting, you make posting more interesting.
#24  
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Posts: 2008/2670
(11-Feb-2008 at 03:46)


Quote:
Here is another example of 2 + 2 equalling something else.

Say I decided to make 4 cds filled with my own guitar music.
The cds that I made become famous and I kept the original copies of the cds but I made 4 new copies of the first cd and and gave 2 to my friend mike and the other 2 to my friend john
John and mike thought the cd was awesome and burned 2 copies of there cd each.
John gives 2 copies to ryder
Mike gives 2 copies to aurora

The quality of ryder and auroras cds are not as good as the quality of mike and johns copy.
The quality of mike and johns cds are certainly not as good of quality as my cd

Ryder and aurora have 4 cds all together but the quality of the cds are less than mine for sure since they were original copies.

Ryder now has .7 out of 1 quality for each cd. The cd is no longer equal to 1 as far as more cds are made the quality reduces itself.

Ryder and auroras cd value has dropped to .7 of a quality cd and has turned into a quanity of a cd
The equation is no longer 1 cd plus 1 cd plus 1 cd plus 1 cd = 4. The equation is now .7 + .7 + .7 .+7 = 2.8 net cd so there 4 cds in market value are only worth 2.8 of what 4 original cds would be worth

Now moving on.

Since I got famous from these cds the original copies will be worth more and my cds that I own will be the quality of 1 cd in its entirty each thus I will make more money off it because its originality. Because its not just a copy which makes the product worth less.

the 8th copy of the cd essentially is worth .7 but the first copy of the cd is worth whole value thus in this situation.

The copy of the cd as far as its value is less than 1 but greater than 0
I like you man, but your missing the boat completely, your adding alot more to the problem here than 2+2, and everything you put in there could be explained using math, I'm just not going to do it (assuming I personally could do it too...lol). If you say I have 4 CDs and give half to john and and half to lisa how many do each of them have? (4/2=2) Thats fine, but if they start copying things, your changing quantities and thus changing the problem.

Quote:
if ou live in a city with electricity, running water, and a roof over your head, you better hope they do exist. If science says that matter will be in one of three states of matter if they meet certain conditions, that is all that its stating. If the conditions go outside what is stated, it doesn't disprove anything.

And math varies depending what base it is, hex 10+10=14(i think). This is similar to what you are stating. just because the answer is different it doesn't disprove that under base 10, 10+10=20.
The first part of this makes no sense, what does science have to with anything there. Electricity is electricity, and I get it, my roof will always be there, it doesn't matter if its classified as a solid or not, as long as its there. I realize if you heat my roof up to 8 zillion degrees it will melt and burn, but hey its gunna do that anyways, so meh.

I have no idea of what Hex is to be honest to you, but I assure you that your problem isnt simply expressed as 10+10=14, there has to be something else to it, because 10+10=20, not 14. 10+10 always equals 20 it wont change, unless you change the problem somehow, which your obviously doing.

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."
#25  
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Posts: 989/1043
Donated $7.44
(11-Feb-2008 at 03:46)


Why are you shamed? You lead us down interesting paths of thought. As you admitted, it was often in a self-indulgent way, but it's okay to have flaws.

Keep posting your musings, but let us share in them and contribute. Enlightenment is something best come to through a group effort.

The less popular Sage
Really...most people forget who I am
But I was here first, damn it!

Willing to sell my soul for a Klondike Bar
#26  
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Posts: 220/294
(11-Feb-2008 at 03:50)
Another way to explain this

Say you have the first babe ruth card ever made.. you would get tons of money from it

The most you can get from the first card is absolute value and its absolute value equalls one. If you have 20 copies of a babe ruth card you are gonna get significantly less money than if you had the original. The card with the absolute value of one which is the orignal.

although you might have 20 physical cards (10 + 10) that wouldn't be what you actually had. What you have is .0001 of a cards worth, so you basically have nothing because the absolute value of the card is less than the paper it holds.
#27  
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Posts: 2009/2670
(11-Feb-2008 at 04:09)


But that card is worth so much because of its rarity, if you had 20 cards it wouldnt be worth as much, because it would be less rare. So that problem is flawed too.

How bout this ninjo, try expressing a problem using only numbers (you can use variables too even) and try to tell us how it can equal something other than the real answer...

10x+6=56

x= 5 no mater what

ect

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."
#28  
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Posts: 221/294
(11-Feb-2008 at 04:23)
I am really terrible at math

I will give one more example with stuff actually in it.

Say you have two bears

1 50 pound bear
1 500 pound bear

You give both of them 2 salmon each of the same size.

Both of the bears ate the 2 salmon but were effected in diffrent ways.

It wasn't an equal share because to the big bear 2 salmons were just a snack and = .7 of what the 2 salmon meant to the small bear. I don't know how to make an equation of that

(2*2)/(500a)=N

(2*2/50a)=N

I have no idea how to make that into a formula but its not an equal share even though it seems like it.. it seems like one bear filled while the other is still hungry
#29  
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Posts: 2012/2670
(11-Feb-2008 at 04:37)


Yes, the bears grew differently in percentage of total weight, but thats because they started at a different weight, they still ate the same amount of fish and thus both end up with +4 (assuming each salmon weighed 2 pounds and each bear ate 2), that works, the math isn't faulty.

How is 2 salmon that weight 2 pounds (2x2=4) not a equal share compared to 2 salmon that weight 2 pounds (2x2=4)? Last I checked (2x2)=(2x2) or 4=4. In your question your asking if they have a equal share, or ate the same, and they did. The weight of the bear, has nothing to do with if the actual share is equal or not. It is disproportioned yes, but still equal. Math prevails again.

If I weigh 500 pounds and you weigh 50 pounds and we are going to split a pizza evenly we each take half, two equal parts. If we are going to split it proportional to our weight, Ill take 10/11 and you get 1/11.

You CAN say things like 500+4 is not equal to 50+4, and be correct as well. I can even tell how the ratio changes in a formula too if you like (I REALLY don't want to be bothered writing down formulas like that though).

The fact remains that mathematics is always right.

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."

Last edited by Chillin, 11-Feb-2008 at 04:44.
#30  
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(Posted as matinog)
Posts: 685/922
(11-Feb-2008 at 04:48)


if we werent able to use absolute laws of science we wouldnt be able to provide electricity or build a house. How on earth do you think engineers do their work? by guessing that theyr "laws" might be right and risking thousands of lives while doing so? no, the laws are absolute in their own domain.

hex means a number system with 16 symbols(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f). We are though to use a decimal system(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9). Computers only use binary, two symbols(0 1). Depending on which circumstances you aply the math to, the answer will always be the same under those conditions and it will always be absolute. Depending under which conditions you apply scientific laws to, they will always be the same and it will be absolute.

@nijoo= math is independent of physical laws. And in your last example the answer is that the total calories are the same.
#31  
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Posts: 223/294
(11-Feb-2008 at 04:53)
You made some awesome points and I now know what you are talking about.

With math as I was pointing out.. everything isn't just linear so to speak. You have to use math on other factors than linear proportions.

I was saying one bear needed a bigger proportion of fish to live and the other bear needed significantly less of a portion, and even though they got an equal amount, one portion is not as effective as the other portion.

(2n/500)=x < I think

ANother example would be

Say I gave you $200 but you were already a wealthy billionar and say I gave a homeless man $200 and he didn't have a penny to his name.

I understand I gave away $400 no matter what but both people even though they both have $200. they value it diffrently.

The linear sense of math would be.. I gave away 400 dollars but in perspective the homeless man obviously values that money more.

Sorry if I am not using math
#32  
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Posts: 2013/2670
(11-Feb-2008 at 04:55)


Quote:
if we werent able to use absolute laws of science we wouldnt be able to provide electricity or build a house. How on earth do you think engineers do their work? by guessing that theyr "laws" might be right and risking thousands of lives while doing so? no, the laws are absolute in their own domain.
Just because something happens to work, and has always worked in the past doesn't necessarily mean it will continue to always work...

The engineers do they work based on the principal that something has always worked in the past and assume it to continue to work (which is a fairly safe assumption)...

And as far as your hex system goes, the math obviously changes itself to work depending on which system it is being used in. And it can proove itself in each of the various systems.

Thats like saying according to "Chillins math - where 5 and 2 are replaced" 1+1 = 5, thats right then, and you can prove it. Just because something is EXPRESSED differently, doesn't mean it has changed...

Quote:
Say I gave you $200 but you were already a wealthy billionar and say I gave a homeless man $200 and he didn't have a penny to his name.

I understand I gave away $400 no matter what but both people even though they both have $200. they value it diffrently.

The linear sense of math would be.. I gave away 400 dollars but in perspective the homeless man obviously values that money more.
Yes but since both of them just now received $200, its the same $200. If the homeless guys goes out and buys 200 $1 meals, and the millionaire went out and bought a $200 steak, they still both spent the same. The amount of food the poor man got is more, but that isn't relevant to question.

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."

Last edited by Chillin, 11-Feb-2008 at 04:59.
#33  
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(Posted as matinog)
Posts: 686/922
(11-Feb-2008 at 05:09)


chillin, you entirely missed my point. I used the math to show that under different circumstances and parameters answers might be different. But when the parameters are the same, the answers are always the same, in math and science. And Engineers do work based on the fact that a law works, all the time. It would be the dumbest thing on earth to say that they think it might work so they use it while people's lives depend on it. Engineers don't have the luxury of maybes. If they build a bridge they will be able to design it to stand strong based on proven laws.

Just because something happens to work, and has always worked in the past doesn't necessarily mean it will continue to always work

if its agreed that it will always work, then what?
#34  
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Posts: 2014/2670
(11-Feb-2008 at 05:13)


No all you did was express it differently using a different system. The math still works as it always will.

Quote:
Just because something happens to work, and has always worked in the past doesn't necessarily mean it will continue to always work

if its agreed that it will always work, then what?
Just because something is "agreed to always work" does not necessarily mean it always will, and that is exactly how scientific "laws" are disprooven.


And Ninjo, heres another thing

Say I have 1 apple and you have 1 orange.

Do we both have the same number of fruits? Yes, because 1 apple (a fruit) = 1 orange (a fruit)

Do we have the same number of apples? No, because I have 1 apple (1 apple) and you have 1 orange (0 apples), 1 does not equal 0

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."

Last edited by Chillin, 11-Feb-2008 at 05:15.
#35  
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Posts: 226/294
(11-Feb-2008 at 05:57)
(Ma)

What chillin says is true

I will give you a good example

Remeber the bridges that recently collapsed and killed hundreds.. you are right about having to be pausitive about something.

Sometimes even if you are pausitive that it will work that doesn't mean it will.
Look at apollo 13 and then decide.

Chillin physically speaking on a linear sense that is correct I have 1 orange and you have 1 apple we both have two fruits but hypothetically say you picked one apple from a tree of apples and you were surrounded by apples 100s and 100s of apples while I on the other hand was on a ship with no fruit and people were suffering from scruvy.

While we both have 1 fruit.. your fruit is not as valued like my fruit.

Our fruit is therefor not equal to each other in a non linear sense.

We both have the same physical object of a fruit but my while my fruit is crucial in the situation I am in. Your fruit is worthless.

1 Apple + 1 orange = two fruits
My 1 orange in that situation will have way more value than your apple and be used importantly

My 1 orange will be treated as several fruits in that situation

While your apple is just a single apple

Thus 1 apple + 1 orange = x

Because of supply and demand my orange has to be broken down as far as it can go and needs to be treated like multiple fruits to many while your apple doesn't

I know I am adding a lot of hypothetical situations to the equations but I am trying to give instances where 1 + 1 doesn't simply equal two in essense
#36  
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Posts: 2018/2670
(11-Feb-2008 at 06:02)


I'm glad your seeing my point...

Quote:
I know I am adding a lot of hypothetical situations to the equations but I am trying to give instances where 1 + 1 doesn't simply equal two in essense
What your doing is adding things to the problem, its not simply 1+1 anymore, so obviously the answer might be different...

If you leave it at simply 1+1 the answer is always going to be 2. If you change it, like your trying to do, the answer may or may not be 2...

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."
#37  
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(Posted as Celtic19)
Posts: 255/410
(11-Feb-2008 at 06:41)


Quote:
This is true. In fact, these days, we accept almost everything we know on borrowed authority. How many of us "know" that we survive by taking oxygen into the lungs and breathing out carbon dioxide? Most of us. How many of us, though, have actually done the research and observed this happening? Only the scientists...we take it on their authority. It's a safe bet, but I suppose we have to ask ourselves how much we really "know."
>> Hold your breath for a while and you will discover you do need oxygen to survive. As for the carbon dioxide - build a device that dectects CO(2) molecules

Quote:
Hahaha, questioning "convensions of communications"? To communicate a fact we need a common "language". In Chillin language, 2+2=4. While this language is pretty common, drug free and reeking of peer pressure you can't expect to communicate with him in language where 2+2=5. Simple.
>> Thats because in any conversation in which "2+2=5" is a fact of that language means that anything else in that language can be false.

Quote:
@Chillin: im pretty sure the world is flat has never been a scientific law. Tell me a real Physical law that has been disproved completely and i will believe your argument, Some may be altered to only work under a limited amount of situations, but the are not disproven. The rules that natures fallows are absolute, and as time goes on they will be better defined by man.
>> Thats because scientific laws are based on theories and when theories are proven wrong then the law becomes wrong, therefore the law is not actually a law until the theory matches with the results and even then the law is not complete because our understanding of a lot of things is really incomplete.

Pos rep to the first person who can figure out how 26 + 6 = 1 This is ninjoo maths BTW

Last edited by Celtic19, 11-Feb-2008 at 06:42.
#38  
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Posts: 227/294
(11-Feb-2008 at 06:42)
You are right what I have been doing is taken the situation out of the box.

If you have 1 benz and I have one oldsmoble then we definitly have two cars because 1 plus 1 is two, I was just point out hierarchy of the value.

Once you error proof something than its impossible to prove wrong.

I seriously don't understand this disguision at all

1 + 2 = 3 no matter what.

I was saying something like we both went to a show for 20 bucks each and I went to a diffrent show for 20 bucks

The sum total of money spent was 40 dollars.

The show I scene sucked and was a waste of money
while thet show you seen was awesome

we both spent forty dollars although you gained something from your show so the $20 was pausitve I left the show early so the $20 was negative. None the less we spent forty dollars.

I have no idea what you guys are trying to discuss.
Its very difficult find error in absolute basic mathematical strings.

What is this discussion about

Yes if copy data in intervals of 2 you will inevidably(sp) get 4

If you have 2 working yo yos but 2 broken yo yos. You only have 2 yo yos.

Im confussed can someone eleborate on what we are talking about

Last edited by Ninjoo, 11-Feb-2008 at 06:49.
#39  
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Posts: 898/1035
(11-Feb-2008 at 06:50)
Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by Chillin: View Post
Well mathematics is the only "perfect science". By that I mean that without a doubt math proves itself. There is no way to argue that 2 + 2 = anything other than 4, because it can be shown perfectly.

Other sciences classify the degree in which they are sure of things, such as theories, scientific laws, ect. And even the pinnacle of their classification which I beleive is something that is classified as a scientific law, is not as definite as any math problem, because they cannot absolutely prove themselves. Granted those things are very very very likely to be true, something 99.9999% or something, but I can say absolutely no matter what 2 + 2 is and always will be 4 under any circumstance.
2+2 is actually a good example because it all depends on which reference system we use. We humans happens to be born with 10 fingers and toes and thus use base 10 as our reference system.

Lets say a group of Marsians happen to have 3 fingers, they would surely use base 3 as their reference system and get 2+2=10 so you can say that 2 apples plus 2 apples equals 4 apples and always be right, but you cant say that 2+2=4 and always be correct.

2 and 4 is nothing but a symbol for something and such stuff can always change depending of who speaks (in one reference system it is correct but not in another)

Last edited by Pollock, 11-Feb-2008 at 06:53.
#40  
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