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Posts: 4/11
(28-Feb-2002 at 02:23)
lightbulb religious system

this is a repost of something I just recently put up on Utopia's B&S forums. It's a bit radical, but I think it has some merit (obviously).

Hi. This isn't another system that just adds another 'personality' type thing to Utopia, to my knowledge it is an original idea. This is a modified version of the idea I put on The Logician's thread on Ideal Utopia.

The way it works- there are a few Gods, I've made up 5 but they could be changed. They are not meant to emulate real religions, but rather, fantasy dieties similar to those in other RPGs/fantasy worlds.

Each one would have a "Power Rating." This would start out the same for all, let's say at 1000. These values would act much like honor, on a global scale. That is, if followers of God A take lots of land from followers of God B, God A would get some of God C's Power. Obviously, with a total of 5000 points in the world and every attack by a follower of a God (see below) affecting the totals, it would take a lot and even the most powerful individual provinces would have little impact on their own.

Affects of being a follower of a God:
Each province, upon creation, has the choice of any of the 5 Gods, or None. If None is chosen, none of this affects them; they opt not to be part of the God system. If a God is chosen, they have to worry about the following new factors. It would be recommended to new players that they choose None for their first round or two, as it adds complexity and risk to the game, but us vets would appreciate the added depth and strategy.

Every province would have a new stat: Faith. It would start at 0, and for those who picked None (call them Atheists), it would stay that way forever. For everyone else, it would change throughout the age. Note that Faith is not like Honor and is not a closed system; it is more like NW as far as that goes.

Faith could be gained or lost in a number of ways:
-successful attacks/ops on followers of another God would net some
-defending against another God's FAITH ops (see below) would net a little
-successful FAITH ops would net some and cost the target a little
-successful FAITH ops against you would take a little
-Sacrificing prisoners (see below) would net some, but if you didn't sacrifice enough you'd LOSE some
(the formula for how many must be sacrificed would be based on a number of factors and would not be made public, and would have a large random factor.)

Many more things would affect Faith, these are just examples.

Sacrifices: Dungeons play a more important role to religious provinces. You may opt to Sacrifice any number of POWs to attempt to curry favor from your God. However, too small a Sacrifice would insult your God and cost you some Faith.

Temples: A new building, temples increase faith gains by a % and generate a small amount of faith. They also increase success of FAITH-based ops (see below) and Miracles (see below)

Miracles and Curses: High Faith can result in Miracles. The formula would be based on your size, NW, and faith and cap at around 1-3% per utopian day. Miracles would either give resources, increase production/util/birthrates, grant a defensive or offensive bonus, or even give you free Faith. They would appear in the News and take effect randomly. Curses are the opposite, and come from negative Faith. You would have to have a fairly significant amount either way to start having Miracles or Curses.
Also, there would be a random chance based on the same things, as well as army size and target size, of Miracles/Curses occuring when you attack. These could affect any number of things- losses on either side, chance of success, gains, return time, honor gain, etc. The same could happen when you are attacked.
All in all, Miracles and Curses would be a fairly minor addition, just another perk of those who work hard to gain Faith, and a punishment for those of poor Faith.

There would be a new type of op similar to T/Ming in concept, but different in use. A new type of unit, the Missionary, would be used, but fear not- though the cost of missionaries would be very high, not many would be needed, so this won't stretch your forces even more thin. I'm thinking maybe 1 per Temple max, plus 1 for every 10 acres or something- a prov should not need more than a few percent of the pop. to be missionaries, maybe 1-2%.

Anyways, the ops would include a way to 'steal' faith, lower the enemy faith, decrease their chance of Mircles/increase chance of Curses, etc. with limited, if any impact on non-religion based functions. In any case, it should be much harder to do damage or gain resources through Faith ops than T/Ming- the idea here is optional participation, so provs w/out missionaries should not be at significant risk.

More missionaries would also improve the daily fluctuations in Faith, increasing the likelihood of it going up instead of down, and they would help with Miracles/Curses.

Since participation is not meant to be mandatory, all Gods would be balanced with some penalties so as not to make them necessary for their bonuses. Here are my Gods:

note- bonuses fluctuate based on the God's current Power, but not too drastically- a 10% bonus would vary maybe from 5-15%. Numbers given are at exactl 1000 Power.

Khar, God of War
+10% attack strength
-10% return times
-10% util
-15% T/M ops
missionaries give attack bonus of 2 x % of pop.


Maedara, Godess of Night
+10% thievery success rate
+15% enemy losses in battle
-10% defense
+20% POW death rates
missionaries give reduced thief losses on failed ops of 2.5 x % of pop.


Gadaar, God of Plenty
+10% util
+5% pop
-10% offense
-10% draft speed
missionaries give a defense bonus of 2 x % of pop.


Chandalar, God of Nobility

+10% honor gains
+10% elite effectiveness
-10% attack gains
-20% enemy losses
missionaries increase faith fluctuation gains by 10 x % (may sound high but this is really minor)


Mirasha, Godess of Knowledge

+10% SELF spell effectiveness
-10% sci costs
+10% training costs
-5% pop.
Missionaries increase sci (same way as Mind Focus) by 2 x % of pop.

All these numbers/bonuses are just random things I threw out.

If I forgot something, I apologise, just ask for clarification
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Posts: 5/11
(28-Feb-2002 at 05:56)
lightbulb the latest and greatest! ;)

here's what we at B&S have now:

okay, drop the missionary stuff, just have the Gods, each KD has a God and they have a KD-wide Faith, which SLIGHTLY enhances bonuses to a limit, similar to honor but... different ;p

make it more of a KD-wide type thing

and... sigh... drop Power, maybe have charts for how different Gods are doing but I guess that is a bit too ambitious and would likely ruin the first age of its implementation to massive loophole abuse by one God chosen by a big alliance or something... but there needs to be a feel that these Gods are dynamic and universal, like.... Gods.

my new, streamlined, simple proposal:

new Gods, start with a few and add/subtract in later ages, but enough that it doesn't become a two-front war and rule out half the targets. Maybe 6-7, each with one or two decent bonuses, nothing gamebreakingbut along the lines of an average race or personality bonus, maybe like 10% increased gold or whatever...

The Monarch may set the God for the KD, but it can only be changed every few days (maybe 48h) to prevent abuse. When the God is reset, you go back to 0 Faith, but similar to honor at each round's beginning, it will slowly rise to it's starting point, maybe 100. It would function like honor in that it would be gained/lost be attacks, and it would fluctuate slightly as well. The fluctuation would slant towards lowering it, but not enough to be a problem for an average KD that gets in a decent war every week or so. However, unlike honor, more would be gained than was at first lost. Each KD would have its own benefits based on faith, but all in all they'd be about equal (maybe some would range from 10-15%, an incentive to do well but not crippling to those KDs with low Faith). A new attack, Crusade, would result in reduced gains, little or no honor, but more Faith for the KD and would operate either like Trad. March or Conquest.

The servers would keep a runing count of Faith Gains/Losses overall similar to the Top charts already in place. This way, roleplayers could cheer on their God and crush the hated enemies, vets could see how certain strats work based on Godly bonuses on a KD level, and Mehul could see if the Gods were unbalanced. The Survey that shows # of provs of each race would also show KDs of each God.

RKN would prevent too much alliance-type Churches to form

As I said, no Missionaries, maybe a building that helps the faith fluctuations to push toward positive and give a slight increase to God bonuses, but I say no. Maybe each race could have a Priest (1/3 or so, vary by race) that lowers combat losses and gives some minor bonus based on the God of that player's KD (an evil God may cause higher losses, a war God could affect gains, etc) just cuz I feel like currently it doesn't matter what provs do since it's so totally KD-based, I think provs need some interaction....

Each God would have one or more rival Gods, and they'd get slight bonuses attacking/T/Ming one another (offensive only, it wouldn't help much to have +10% offense and the enemy +10% defense now would it?)

At the end of each week, the leader for THAT WEEK ONLY as far as faith per KD would be honored maybe by some little message to its followers ingame and possibly some small gameplay advantage, maybe better Miracle odds (see below) or a small bonus to production (+5% util? or maybe 10% total divided up based on total faith, so if one God got a third of all the faith gained they'd get +3.3% util).

Miracles and Curses would still occur based on KD Faith, but since they are KD wide they'd be minor and affect all strats equally- a miracle that makes armies return faster doesn't help a mage much.

The main thing I miss from the old system is the new strat of Holy Province that had elements of T/Ming but mainly benefitted your God... maybe this could eventually be added to help the KD, I can't see anything wrong with creating an entire strat devoted to helping your kingdom!

Additions/modifications to this new idea would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for everyone's input! Once Mehul upgrades to a 1000 node Beowulf cluster we can implement the other idea

keep that $15 from PayPal coming, only a few million to go!
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Posts: 30/111
(28-Feb-2002 at 11:50)


i skimmed it, and it seems like a really good idea. Is there any way you could condense it down to just a list or an outline? It would make it a lot easier to make sense of all of it.
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Posts: 836/4687
Donated $5.44
(28-Feb-2002 at 14:39)


Wouldn't that mean the people would start playing for their respective gods rather than their KDs ?

Famous for nowty by nature
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Posts: 7/63
(28-Feb-2002 at 15:54)

I agree, if you fight a war against a kingdom in wich they all have the same religion wich is the same as yours, then what do you do...
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Posts: 6/11
(01-Mar-2002 at 01:15)

I know, the first idea is flawed.... read the second. As for the same God thing, you wouldn't be allowed to go hostile on KDs of the same God.
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Posts: 11/40
Donated $0.65
(01-Mar-2002 at 03:29)

Was this idea for Provinces or Kingdoms??

I.e. would each indivule province have a seperate god or would it be kingdom based.

another suggestion:
What would happen if you changed religion. (you should be able to do this I.M.H.O.)

---| Deus Taemun |---

Global Modreader
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Posts: 5/19
(18-Mar-2002 at 09:08)
Besides which, if you were not able to go hostile w/ kd's of your religion then this would eventually lead to a(some) minority religion(s) which would be destroyed rather quickly by an overwhelming number of kingdoms looking for a fight and only having so many choices....if they were not picked evenly (which races arn't now) we'd have a problem...
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Posts: 39/270
(18-Mar-2002 at 09:44)

If its for provinces then its basically just another personality and would truely confuse newbies. imagine coming in for the first time and being told you must pick a race then modify it with both a personality and a religion. the possible combinations for a newbie to pick dresticaly increase making it that much harder for kingdommates to steer them in the correct course on how to play as the more possibilites the more specialized a province becomes

if its a kingdom thing good lick getting a kingdom to agree on a religion. Will cuase more civil wars and disunity then already exists just over war tactics and battle plans. Especially if the religion picked doesn't benifit your strat at all. We want to enourage teamwork not factions within a kingdom viaing for control
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